Saved by Water

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So you at least recognize that 1 Cor 10:15 has nothing to with water baptism. But it IS baptism anyway. And you can't/won't explain it.

I have no idea what you are referencing.

Oops. I need to slow down my typing. I meant 1 Cor 10:1-5.

 

[Wansvic]

FreeGrace2 said:
So you at least recognize that 1 Cor 10:15 has nothing to with water baptism. But it IS baptism anyway. And you can't/won't explain it.

Oops. I need to slow down my typing. I meant 1 Cor 10:1-5.

The cloud and sea of the Moses baptism foreshadow the NT water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. Foreshadows and antitypes (real thing) have shared characteristics but are not exact in every detail. .This is seen in the case of the flood of Noah and its relationship to NT water baptism. (1 Peter 3:20-21) Foreshadows can be explained as hints that point to what will become reality later.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The cloud and sea of the Moses baptism foreshadow the NT water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

No, the cloud and sea are LITERAL things. All associated with Moses taking the Jews through LITERAL WATER to escape the Egyptian army.

If God had NOT parted the sea, and the Jews tried to get across, they all would have been KILLED by the LITERAL WATER.

There is NO "foreshadowing" of anything. It is a literal account of what happened.

Yet, Paul described it in terms of baptism. Why? Because the word is used of IDENTIFICATION is why. That's the origin of the word.

But you dismiss it as unimportant. Well, it explains how the word is used.

There are real IDENTIFICATIONS (dry baptisms, like cloud and sea with Moses) and there are ritual IDENTIFICATIONS (wet baptisms, like when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, and Christian water baptism). These ritual baptisms IDENTIFY the person with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

Since you refuse to accept that there are real (dry) and ritual (wet) baptisms, you are simply UNABLE to discern the truth of the Bible on the subject of baptism.

This is proved by your misunderstanding of 1 Cor 10:1-5.

Foreshadows and antitypes (real thing) have shared characteristics but are not exact in every detail. .This is seen in the case of the flood of Noah and its relationship to NT water baptism. (1 Peter 3:20-21) Foreshadows can be explained as hints that point to what will become reality later.

The reality is that the Jews were IDENTIFIED with Moses and with the cloud (Christ) and with the sea (by NOT being killed by water).

 

[Wansvic]

No, the cloud and sea are LITERAL things. All associated with Moses taking the Jews through LITERAL WATER to escape the Egyptian army.

If God had NOT parted the sea, and the Jews tried to get across, they all would have been KILLED by the LITERAL WATER.

There is NO "foreshadowing" of anything. It is a literal account of what happened.

Yet, Paul described it in terms of baptism. Why? Because the word is used of IDENTIFICATION is why. That's the origin of the word.

But you dismiss it as unimportant. Well, it explains how the word is used.

There are real IDENTIFICATIONS (dry baptisms, like cloud and sea with Moses) and there are ritual IDENTIFICATIONS (wet baptisms, like when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, and Christian water baptism). These ritual baptisms IDENTIFY the person with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

Since you refuse to accept that there are real (dry) and ritual (wet) baptisms, you are simply UNABLE to discern the truth of the Bible on the subject of baptism.

This is proved by your misunderstanding of 1 Cor 10:1-5.


The reality is that the Jews were IDENTIFIED with Moses and with the cloud (Christ) and with the sea (by NOT being killed by water).

I did not say the cloud and sea were not literal. What I said is they pointed to what would come about in the New Testament regarding water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

I truly believe you should pray about it. And may God bless you!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not say the cloud and sea were not literal. What I said is they pointed to what would come about in the New Testament regarding water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

Paul was writing about REAL baptisms, which are about IDENTIFICATIONS. But you continue to refuse to accept that.

I truly believe you should pray about it. And may God bless you!

I ALWAYS pray before I study. You should too.

 

[Wansvic]

Paul was writing about REAL baptisms, which are about IDENTIFICATIONS. But you continue to refuse to accept that.


I ALWAYS pray before I study. You should too.

I did not in anyway mean to demean you. I was sincere in suggesting you pray about this topic because it is a heaven or hell issue. No one will gain access to heaven unless their sin has been dwelt with. (John 3:3-5)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not in anyway mean to demean you.

I didn't take your comment personally. These discussions are about what is right or wrong.

I was sincere in suggesting you pray about this topic because it is a heaven or hell issue.

No, baptism isn't a heaven or hell issue. People are saved by placing their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. No one will go to hell for lack of water baptism.

Rev 20:15 says those who's names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. There is nothing about being water baptized for receiving eternal life. Every verse on how to receive eternal life is based on faith. Nothing else mentioned.

No one will gain access to heaven unless their sin has been dwelt with. (John 3:3-5)

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The red words are synonymous. iow, to "believe in Him" means to believe "through (IN) His name".

There is no mention of baptism here. Yet you ADD to Scripture by seeing water in "through His name", even though there is no mention of the word.

Salvation is by faith in Christ. Trusting in what He did for you. Nothing else.

Water baptism is a ritual of obedience which is a public testimony of who you are being identified with.

Jesus told one of the thieves next to Him on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Was he water baptized? No, he was not. But he did believe that Jesus was Deity and wanted Jesus to remember him when Jesus went to His kingdom. That is what saved him.

 

[Wansvic]

I didn't take your comment personally. These discussions are about what is right or wrong.


No, baptism isn't a heaven or hell issue. People are saved by placing their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. No one will go to hell for lack of water baptism.

Rev 20:15 says those who's names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. There is nothing about being water baptized for receiving eternal life. Every verse on how to receive eternal life is based on faith. Nothing else mentioned.


Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The red words are synonymous. iow, to "believe in Him" means to believe "through (IN) His name".

There is no mention of baptism here. Yet you ADD to Scripture by seeing water in "through His name", even though there is no mention of the word.

Salvation is by faith in Christ. Trusting in what He did for you. Nothing else.

Water baptism is a ritual of obedience which is a public testimony of who you are being identified with.

Jesus told one of the thieves next to Him on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Was he water baptized? No, he was not. But he did believe that Jesus was Deity and wanted Jesus to remember him when Jesus went to His kingdom. That is what saved him.

We clearly disagree.

Peter said in Acts 2:38 "...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, those who believe in Jesus will be water baptized in His name and receive remission of sin.

Peter also tells the Gentiles that through Jesus' name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) And Peter commands them to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.


As for the thief, he died under the OT and was not required to obey the NT commands. The NT conditions began after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We clearly disagree.

All I can do is present what the Word says. And explain where there seem to be differences, which you seem not willing to accept.

Peter said in Acts 2:38 "...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, those who believe in Jesus will be water baptized in His name and receive remission of sin.

Without a doubt that crowd was unique in their sins. Just like the Pharisees who SAW the miracles (done by the power of the Holy Spirit) but they claimed the miracles of Jesus were done by Beelzebub. Basically ascribing the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan himself.

iow, they were so negative to the truth, that NOTHING would convince them of truth. That is why Jesus said they wouldn't be forgiven. He knew they would not repent. Just like many in the Tribulation who will not repent. Rev 16.

Peter also tells the Gentiles that through Jesus' name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) And Peter commands them to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

As I've shown from that verse, the KEY is "everyone who BELIEVES IN HIM". That's how people are saved. You are conflating Acts 2:38 with 10:43 and trying to make 10:43 say something OTHER than it does.

As for the thief, he died under the OT and was not required to obey the NT commands.

It is WRONG to think that salvation was by a different method than in the NT. Just follow Paul's own preaching. He "proved from the Scriptures" that Jesus is the Christ. What Scriptures? The OT, of course.

There is NO difference between OT and NT salvation. It's all the same.

The NT conditions began after the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.

You need to read what Paul preached. Everything came from the OT Scriptures. There is NO difference in how to be saved.

And, remember that Paul said he WASN'T called to baptize but to preach the gospel.

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Not ONCE in Paul's preaching did he claim that salvation required water baptism.