Saved by Water
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Paul NEVER included water baptism as a requirement for salvation. Quit kidding yourself. His answer to the jailer was his STANDARD RESPONSE TO how to get saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That's it.
Further, Paul made it clear how FEW people he baptized. If he really believed that water baptism was a requirement for salvation, he would have made sure all of those who responded to his message got baptized.
Yet, 1 Cor 1:17 is very clear that he didn't regard water baptism as a requirement for salvation.
But your eyes are closed to the truth.
Why do you ignore Acts 10:43? That verse alone refutes your views.
Further, Paul made it clear how FEW people he baptized. If he really believed that water baptism was a requirement for salvation, he would have made sure all of those who responded to his message got baptized.
Yet, 1 Cor 1:17 is very clear that he didn't regard water baptism as a requirement for salvation.
But your eyes are closed to the truth.
Why do you ignore Acts 10:43? That verse alone refutes your views.
To think Paul did not know or preach that sins were forgiven upon obedience to water baptism is to refuse to accept what Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16. Ananias told Paul to delay no longer and submit to water baptism in order for his sins to be washed away.
It is a mistake to assume those who heard Paul's message did not submit to baptism. Many scriptures neglect to include every detail; however, that is not proof that it did not occur.
Paul's epistles contain instructions, to those who have already been born again concerning proper Christian behavior. And some reference details of the conversion experience. As such, the readers are given insight to what exactly occurred when they were born of water and Spirit.
Also, how few people Paul personally water baptized has no bearing on its necessity.
You may want to take a look at the scriptures I referenced in a previous post:
"I believe what the Word actually says concerning when one's sins are remitted. (Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...) And since salvation is not possible without remission of sin water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is required."
It is a mistake to assume those who heard Paul's message did not submit to baptism. Many scriptures neglect to include every detail; however, that is not proof that it did not occur.
Paul's epistles contain instructions, to those who have already been born again concerning proper Christian behavior. And some reference details of the conversion experience. As such, the readers are given insight to what exactly occurred when they were born of water and Spirit.
Also, how few people Paul personally water baptized has no bearing on its necessity.
You may want to take a look at the scriptures I referenced in a previous post:
"I believe what the Word actually says concerning when one's sins are remitted. (Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...) And since salvation is not possible without remission of sin water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is required."
FreeGrace2 said:
...You've been refuted already.
I KNOW God's purpose for water baptism. It is a ritual that identifies the believer as Christ's. That's it.
Water DOES NOT SAVE. Water KILLS. Just ask the world's population in Noah's day. Or the entire Egyptian army in Moses' day.
In both scenarios, people were IMMERSED IN WATER. It KILLED them. All of them.
How do you understand 1 Cor 10:-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
How can people be described as being "baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" yet none of the Jews got wet at all. Yet Paul described them as being BAPTIZED. Explain it please.
...You've been refuted already.
I KNOW God's purpose for water baptism. It is a ritual that identifies the believer as Christ's. That's it.
Water DOES NOT SAVE. Water KILLS. Just ask the world's population in Noah's day. Or the entire Egyptian army in Moses' day.
In both scenarios, people were IMMERSED IN WATER. It KILLED them. All of them.
How do you understand 1 Cor 10:-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
How can people be described as being "baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" yet none of the Jews got wet at all. Yet Paul described them as being BAPTIZED. Explain it please.
Paul's experience was quite similar to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost. The timing is irrelevant.
Paul himself made clear that he wasn't sent to baptize. Why don't you get that? If water baptism WAS a requirement, then the PREMIER evangelist of all time would have MADE SURE everyone who responded to his message would have been baptized and he would have clearly included water baptism in his answer to the jailer's question, which you ALWAYS ignore or dismiss.
btw, water baptism was NEVER any kind of requirement in the law in the OT. And Paul very clearly testified that he wasn't going "beyond what Moses and the prophets" said. I challenge you to go through every verse/passage and find ANY mention of water baptism.
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ
Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”
John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.
Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]
Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.
Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]
Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.
Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.
Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
2 Tim 3:15 - and how from childhood you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Since neither Moses nor the prophets preached water baptism for salvation, neither did Paul.
Paul himself made clear that he wasn't sent to baptize. Why don't you get that? If water baptism WAS a requirement, then the PREMIER evangelist of all time would have MADE SURE everyone who responded to his message would have been baptized and he would have clearly included water baptism in his answer to the jailer's question, which you ALWAYS ignore or dismiss.
btw, water baptism was NEVER any kind of requirement in the law in the OT. And Paul very clearly testified that he wasn't going "beyond what Moses and the prophets" said. I challenge you to go through every verse/passage and find ANY mention of water baptism.
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ
Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”
John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.
Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]
Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.
Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]
Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.
Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.
Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
2 Tim 3:15 - and how from childhood you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Since neither Moses nor the prophets preached water baptism for salvation, neither did Paul.
FreeGrace2 said
How do you understand 1 Cor 10:-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
How can people be described as being "baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" yet none of the Jews got wet at all. Yet Paul described them as being BAPTIZED. Explain it please.
So basically, you CAN'T explain why Paul wrote what he did.
Paul wasn't describing "foreshadows" in 1 Cor 10. He was describing REAL people who went THROUGH a real sea, but never got wet.
And the Bible describes that as "walked on dry ground". But you can't explain it, or you would have.
So, enough said.
You can't explain it because you DON'T KNOW what water baptism is all about.
How do you understand 1 Cor 10:-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
How can people be described as being "baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea" yet none of the Jews got wet at all. Yet Paul described them as being BAPTIZED. Explain it please.
So basically, you CAN'T explain why Paul wrote what he did.
Paul wasn't describing "foreshadows" in 1 Cor 10. He was describing REAL people who went THROUGH a real sea, but never got wet.
And the Bible describes that as "walked on dry ground". But you can't explain it, or you would have.
So, enough said.
You can't explain it because you DON'T KNOW what water baptism is all about.
T
Those experiences are foreshadows of water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost that would become available and understood in the NT.
Another example of foreshadows is seen in the candlestick and shew bread in the OT tabernacle. They are foreshadows of Jesus as the light of the World and the bread of life. Surely you understand that Jesus was not a candlestick or a loaf of bread.
Those experiences are foreshadows of water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost that would become available and understood in the NT.
Another example of foreshadows is seen in the candlestick and shew bread in the OT tabernacle. They are foreshadows of Jesus as the light of the World and the bread of life. Surely you understand that Jesus was not a candlestick or a loaf of bread.
There is a lot of symbolic language, metaphor, allegory, etc, in the Bible, this is true 
However, when we are told that Jesus fulfilled all righteous, that is straight up language meant to convey an easy-to-understand truth. Nothing is hidden. There is no veiled message. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. We put on that righteous by grace through faith.
However, when we are told that Jesus fulfilled all righteous, that is straight up language meant to convey an easy-to-understand truth. Nothing is hidden. There is no veiled message. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. We put on that righteous by grace through faith.
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You may think what you want, but those experiences were NOT foreshadows of water baptism.
The Exodus generation went across the Red Sea "ON DRY GROUND" and you think this somehow foreshadows immersion by water????
Didn't you ask any of the Egyptian army? All of them were totally immersed in water. And they were KILLED by the water.
Or Noah and the flood. The ONLY people who were SAVED from the flood (literal water) were Noah and family. The entire rest of the earth's population were KILLED by the water.
So, nope, no "saved by water" here either.
I know what "foreshadow" means. But you seem not to.
You also do not understand what symbols are either. 1 Pet 3:20 is about a symbol. Literal water symbolizes the believer's (already saved) being in union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. A perfect picture, btw.
The Exodus generation went across the Red Sea "ON DRY GROUND" and you think this somehow foreshadows immersion by water????
Didn't you ask any of the Egyptian army? All of them were totally immersed in water. And they were KILLED by the water.
Or Noah and the flood. The ONLY people who were SAVED from the flood (literal water) were Noah and family. The entire rest of the earth's population were KILLED by the water.
So, nope, no "saved by water" here either.
I know what "foreshadow" means. But you seem not to.
You also do not understand what symbols are either. 1 Pet 3:20 is about a symbol. Literal water symbolizes the believer's (already saved) being in union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. A perfect picture, btw.
There is a lot of symbolic language, metaphor, allegory, etc, in the Bible, this is true
However, when we are told that Jesus fulfilled all righteous, that is straight up language meant to convey an easy-to-understand truth. Nothing is hidden. There is no veiled message. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. We put on that righteous by grace through faith.
However, when we are told that Jesus fulfilled all righteous, that is straight up language meant to convey an easy-to-understand truth. Nothing is hidden. There is no veiled message. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. We put on that righteous by grace through faith.