Do SDA believe Michael is God?

ChristianSubMissionary · Mar 8, 2022

Mem said:

The "certain man" (Dan. 10:5-9) is the Son of God. Yet from Dan. 10:10-12:4 is Gabriel speaking to and interacting with Daniel. The two covering cherubim that showed up with the Son of God is Gabriel and 'Herald' (nickname I use for him).

Gabriel refers to Michael, and even requires Michael's aid against the devil, which frees up Gabriel to speak with Daniel while Michael/Jesus (Son of God) deals with the devil until Gabriel accomplishes the task given him by Michael/Jesus.

The Son of God is witnessed and spoken of throughout Dan. 10-12. Yes, the Son of God is asked by one of the covering cherubim, "How long ..." (Dan. 12:6), and then The Son of God answers (Dan. 12:7, see also Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luk. 21:24), because He knows more than Gabriel about prophecy, just as Gabriel said He did (Dan. 10:21).

Mem · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

Considering that the pronoun "he" is used in Daniel 10:11 with no previous introduction other than of the Son of God, I can't be confident enough to make the assumption that the hand in verse 10 is that of Gabriel rather than of 'the man dressed in linen.' According to grammarly.com, "pronouns are words you substitute for other nouns when your reader or listener already knows which nouns you're referring to."

Mem · Mar 8, 2022

However, with that said, I do not think it impossible that all three of the men which visited Abraham were God.

ChristianSubMissionary · Mar 8, 2022

Mem said:

I do (think/know) it to be impossible that all three (Gen 17-19) are/were God.

ChristianSubMissionary · Mar 8, 2022

Mem said:

Daniel already knew who the "he" (Gabriel) was since Dan. 7-9. See also vs 16,19. If you do a word comparison between chapters 7-10, you will see it is Gabriel speaking, having been sent by the Son of God.

posthuman · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

it is quite evident from ch. 2 that fellows refers to Christ having been found in the form of a man, not to angels.

He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

(Hebrews 2:5)

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

(Hebrews 2:10-12)

For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like brethren

(Hebrews 2:15-16)

ChristianSubMissionary · Mar 8, 2022

posthuman said:

Strawman once again. I never said that when Hebrews 1 referring to "fellows" angels (context Hebrews 1, you yourself cited the very surrounding verses and context), was referring to 'nature' of Jesus. It doesn't. It refers to the like 'office', as Jesus (as the uncreated and eternal only begotten Son of God the Father) is in the official position as highest messenger (angel) for the Father, and being in said office/position makes Him the very fellow in office/position to the created messengers/ministers like Gabriel, etc.

You made the mistakes, not I.

Hebrews 1 is about the Son of God as eternal Deity over all, including the created messengers, though He Himself is also a messenger for the Father.

Hebrews 2 is about the Son of God taking upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh (nature) of mankind, and never assumed the nature of created angels (which are differing in nature than Deity and mankind).

Anyone that teaches that the Son of God appeared, even visually, in the form of a created angel does not correctly understand scripture.

He, before taking upon Himself the "form of a servant" (nature of the likeness of sinful flesh of mankind), was always in "the form of God" (Deity), never in the "form of created angelic hosts" (whom are servants).

posthuman · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

i am glad we agree then.
Do you take exception if i post facts which are relevant to the thread?

Usually when i see someone post something true, i 'like' it instead of accusing them.
But everyone is different

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

Magenta said:

"The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.
The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament after the birth of Christ. One possible difficulty is that the angel who appears to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1:24 is called "the" angel of the Lord. However, this angel is clearly the same one appearing in verse 20, which calls him "an angel." Matthew is simply referencing the same angel he had just mentioned. There is also some confusion regarding Matthew 28:2, where the KJV says “the angel of the Lord” descended from heaven and rolled the stone away from Jesus’ tomb. It is important to note that the original Greek has no article in front of angel; it could be “the angel” or “an angel,” but the article must be supplied by the translators. Other translations besides the KJV say it was “an angel,” which is the better wording.

It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God."
https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

Magenta · Mar 8, 2022

TheLearner said:

I use that site as a reference source also

Be careful, though

They are not always right

Not that I disagree with anything they have said on this matter

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

"
Theophany
Manifestation of God that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period often, but not always, in human form. Some would also include in this term Christophanies (preincarnate appearances of Christ) and angelophanies (appearances of angels). In the latter category are found the appearances of the angel of the Lord, which some have taken to be Christophanies, reasoning that since the angel of the Lord speaks for God in the first person ( Gen 16:10 ) and the human addressed often attributes the experience to God directly ( Gen 16:13 ), the angel must therefore be the Lord or the preincarnate Christ. Yet, though the angel is clearly identified with the Lord, he is distinguished from him (he is called "angel, " meaning "messenger" similar patterns of identification and distinction can be seen in Genesis Genesis 19:1 Genesis 19:21 ; Genesis 31:11 Genesis 31:13 ; Exodus 3:2 Exodus 3:4 ; Judges 2:1-5 ; Judges 6:11-12 Judges 6:14 ; Judges 13:3 Judges 13:6 Judges 13:8-11 Judges 13:13 Judges 13:15-17 Judges 13:20-23 ; Zech 3:1-6 ; 12:8 ). In the ancient oriental world, a king's messenger spoke in the name of the king. Any insult rendered him was interpreted as an insult to the king himself (cf. Hanun's treatment of David's embassy, 2 Sam 10:1-4 ; 1 Chron 19:2-6 ). There seems, therefore, no necessity to posit a theophany for the angel of the Lord. In Joshua 5:13-6:5, the conquest narrative is interrupted by the abrupt appearance of a being who calls himself the "commander of the army of the Lord" (5:14). To interpret this event as an encounter with God or with the preincarnate Christ forces the text. Angels were sent on missions of this kind ( Judges 6:11 ; 13:3 ), and some were identified as captains over heavenly armies ( Daniel 10:5 Daniel 10:20 ; 12:1 ). While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, both in matters of grace and judgment." https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/theophany/

ChristianSubMissionary · Mar 8, 2022

Mem said:

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

And, yet that king died and went to the grave. That is a human friend.
The mountin in the text is the mountain of the pagan gods, not the real God.

Isaiah 14:13
Easy-to-Read Version
13 You always told yourself,
“I will go to the skies above.
I will put my throne above God’s stars.
I will sit on Zaphon, the holy mountain where the gods meet.

"
Baal-zephon or Baalsapunu, properly Ba Pūnū or sapunu (Hebrew: בַּעַל צְפֹן‎ Baʿal Ṣəfōn; Akkadian: dIM Be-el ḫur.sag Ḫa-zi; Ugaritic: baʿlu ṣapāni; Hurrian: Tšb Ḫlbğ),[1] was the form of the Canaanite storm god Baʿal (lit. "The Lord") in his role as lord of Mount Zaphon;[1][n 1] he is identified in the Ugaritic texts as Hadad.[6][7] Because of the mountain's importance and location, it came to metonymously signify "north" in Hebrew;[8] the name is therefore sometimes given in translation as Lord of the North.[n 2] He was equated with the Greek god Zeus in his form Zeus Kasios and later with the Roman Jupiter Casius.

Because Baʿal Zaphon was considered a protector of maritime trade, sanctuaries were constructed in his honor around the Mediterranean by his Canaanite and Phoenician devotees.[1] "Baal-zephon" thereby also became a placename, most notably a location mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures' Book of Exodus as the location where the Israelites miraculously crossed the Red Sea during their exodus from Egypt.

"

oyster67 · Mar 8, 2022

TheLearner said:

I have heard it said that many cults say that Jesus-manifested-in-flesh was Michael the Archangel rather than the Son of God. I may be thinking of the JWs? They may have recently changed their stance on this?

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

"(zay' pahn) Place name meaning, “north.” 1. City east of the Jordan River in Gad's territory (Joshua 13:27 ). It was probably a center of worship of the god Baal-zaphon in the days of Canaanite supremacy before the Gadites took over. It is identified with tell el-Qos, tell es-Saidiye, or tell el-Mazar. Shophan (Numbers 32:35 ) may be another spelling of the same city. 2. Mountain viewed as home of the gods in Canaanite thought, perhaps referred to in Psalm 48:2 (NIV), Isaiah 14:13 (NRSV), and Job 26:7 (NRSV), showing Yahweh controls what Canaan thought their gods possessed." https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/eng/hbd/z/zaphon.html

"
Zaphon
The Hebrew word ⊡āpôn is one of the ordinary words for “north”; this is its most frequent meaning in the Bible, but it is derived from its primary sense. Zaphon was the name (meaning “lookout”) of a mountain on the Mediterranean coast ca. 10 km (6 mi) north of Ugarit, later called Mount Casius and now Jebel el‐ʾAqraʿ. As a prominent peak in the northern part of the Canaanite world, its name was used as a synonym for the direction north, just as one of the words for “west” literally means the (Mediterranean) Sea. It is primarily identified with Baal, as widespread references to Baal‐zephon (see Exod. 14.2) indicate; it was his home and as such could also be deified.

There are several passages in the Bible in which the original sense of ⊡āpôn as the mountain home of the storm god is meant. Job 26.7 and Isaiah 14.13 are both in contexts permeated with references to Canaanite mythology. " (Oxford Biblical Studies).

posthuman · Mar 8, 2022

Mem said:

They are at least a picture of Him

This verse in particular is interesting:

Genesis 18:22
Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

"Baal will bless you from Zaphon" (Papyrus Amherst 63, viii 3)

"And from Zaphon / May Yaho help us" (Papyrus Amherst 63, xii 13-14)

"Let Baal from Zaphon / Bless Yaho" (Papyrus Amherst 63, xiii 15-16)

(K. van der Toorn: Becoming Diaspora Jews. New Haven / London 2019, pp. 159, 168, 169)

https://www.zaphon.de/about-zaphon

Mount Zaphon
Excerpt from the Lexham Bible Dictionary, the most advanced Bible dictionary.
The sacred mountain of the god Baal or Baal-Hadad in Canaanite religion.

https://biblia.com/factbook/Mount-Zaphon

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

ChristianSubMissionary said:

The "certain man" (Dan. 10:5-9) is the Son of God. Yet from Dan. 10:10-12:4 is Gabriel speaking to and interacting with Daniel. The two covering cherubim that showed up with the Son of God is Gabriel and 'Herald' (nickname I use for him).

Gabriel refers to Michael, and even requires Michael's aid against the devil, which frees up Gabriel to speak with Daniel while Michael/Jesus (Son of God) deals with the devil until Gabriel accomplishes the task given him by Michael/Jesus.

The Son of God is witnessed and spoken of throughout Dan. 10-12. Yes, the Son of God is asked by one of the covering cherubim, "How long ..." (Dan. 12:6), and then The Son of God answers (Dan. 12:7, see also Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luk. 21:24), because He knows more than Gabriel about prophecy, just as Gabriel said He did (Dan. 10:21).

Gabriel & Michael are seperate beings.

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

Today the Church celebrates the three archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael
https://angelusnews.com/faith/saint-of-the-day/saint-of-the-day-michael-gabriel-and-raphael/

Gabriel gives messages and understanding; Michael is warrior Prince. They have different roles.

"Compare this statement with the statement in The Desire of Ages, page 99, which says, "And to John the angel [Gabriel] declared, 'I am a fellow servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets.' Rev. 22:9, R.V. Wonderful thought—that the angel who stands next in honor to the Son of God is the one chosen to open the purposes of God to sinful men."

...

Gabriel declared, He withstood me twenty-one days by his representations against the Jews. But Michael came to his help, and then he remained with the kings of Persia, holding the powers in check, giving right counsel against evil counsel. (Quoted in The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 4, p. 1173.) ""
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1962/06/the-office-and-ministry-of-the-angel-gabriel

One does not come to help themselves.

TheLearner · Mar 8, 2022

start at #194

Do SDA believe Michael is God?

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