Saved by Water

Wansvic · Mar 6, 2022

Your response pertained to my comment: "Obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is when sins are remitted according to the Word. I believe the Word means what it says."

Since you don't believe that is true, how do you explain away what Ananias said to the Apostle Paul in Acts 22:19?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Wansvic · Mar 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You are simply ignoring the truth. And you still don't gasp the difference between water and Spirit baptism. One is wet and one is dry.

You are unable to discern between which baptism is being referred to. You default every verse to water baptism.

There is nothing to argue about. Just consider the case of Cornelius.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

These verses prove that they all received the Holy Spirit BEFORE there was any water baptism.

47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

ONLY after receiving the Holy Spirit did Peter even bring up water baptism.

In ch 11 we have more clarifying verses where Peter explains to the saved Jews back in Jerusalem why he went to the home of a Gentile, a BIG no-no for a Jew.

14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

iow, they would be saved "through a message", which is obviously hearing and believing the gospel. Not "by water".

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

If these 3 verses don't convince you that the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you just don't want to be convinced.

In v.15 Peter recounts that as he was speaking, the Holy Spirit came on all of them, just as He had come on the jews at the beginning, which is a refernce to Acts 1 and the Day of Pentecost.

Then, in v.16 Peter differentiates between water and Spirit baptism. iow, Cornelius and family/friends were Spirit baptized.

Yes, they do, and I have shown your errors. You will see the truth ONLY IF you have ears to hear and eyes to see.

I've been doing that probably far longer than you have.

No, unfortunately, many have been taught false doctrine from the earliest times.

Can you find any example, other than drinking water, where one can be saved by water?

The scripture shows clearly that both obedience to water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are required. There are examples of individuals receiving the Holy Ghost before, and others after getting water baptized in Jesus' name. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) So the sequence is not what matters. What matters is to be obedient because God commands it. (John 3:3-5)

Wansvic · Mar 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The Galatians scripture you reference is specifically addressing receiving of the Spirit. It should not be seen as excluding the need to obey God's other commands relevant to the rebirth; such as, repentance, and water baptism. To clarify, I believe what is stated in the Word. Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are necessary for all believers. You are mistaken if you think I am saying one receives the Holy Ghost the moment they get water baptized; to think so is a direct contradiction of scripture.

As concerning the crucifixion, although not there personally, to think that you and I, as well as all humanity had nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion is wrong. Every single person who has ever, or will ever live is guilty of sinning against God. Without repentance and obedience to God's commands expressed through the apostles people remain dead in their sin. It was Jesus, through the Holy Ghost, who gave the commandments to the Apostle Peter to present to the people. (Acts 1:1-2)

Wansvic · Mar 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The following may help, in the event you are unfamiliar with scripture that confirms the point that all people were required to get water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish) The group did not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believed in Jesus. However, they were told they could expect the Holy Ghost at some point.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half jewish-half gentile)
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

Acts 10:43-48 (Gentiles)
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Acts 11:13-14 (The angel said Peter was going to tell them how to be saved)
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:35-40 (Eunuch)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Acts 16:28-33 Jailer and family saved
But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Wansvic said:

The ONLY "ingredient" to belief is trust. Trusting in the work of Christ on your behalf.

It isn't possible to even know "everything He said". The Bible tells us repeatedly the basis for justification, salvation and eternal life. Trust in the work of Christ.

You are trusting in verses that don't even apply to you.

To be "born of water" is physical birth. To be born of the Spirit is faith/trust in Christ for salvation.

This statement represents a works salvation, just as the Pharisees believed, and WEREN'T saved by.

Didn't you know what these people did? But what they lacked was faith. There is no mention of faith, which is why Jesus could say that He "never knew them". They never believed in Him.

Wrong. There was NO faith in this crowd. Those who have believed in Jesus cannnot be condemned because of what the Bible teaches.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Since these verses are TRUE, your statement that some who have believed cannot ever hear those words "I never knew you".

That phrase refers to havng never believed in Him.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Wansvic said:

The verse does NOT say that.

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Why do you continually ignore the word "believes". Those who believe in Him (His Name) receive forgiveness. That's what Luke wrote.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
You've been shown the truth.

Salvation is THROUGH FAITH, not "by water".

Wansvic said:

I don't believe your opinion is true. See above. Eph 2:8 refutes your opinion. We are saved by grace through faith, not through water.

“ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you."

?????

Oh, you meant v.16

22:16 "be baptized and wash away your sins" These are both AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVES. This is an OT allusion to the ceremonial ablutions (cf. Lev. 11:25,28,40; 13:6,34,56; 14:8-9; 15:5-13,21-22,27; 16:26,28; 17:15-16; Num. 8:7,21; 19:19; Deut. 23:11). It is used here as a symbol of our spiritual cleansing in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Baptism was the early Church's public profession of faith.
Notice that the MIDDLE VOICE refers to both baptism (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE) and cleansing (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE). Paul could not wash away his sins, but he could baptize himself (Jewish practice for proselytes). Often it is said that immersion is the only NT pattern (cf. Romans 6 and Colossians 2), but here baptism is linked to the metaphor of washing (cf. Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Theologically 1 Pet. 3:21 shows that it is a symbol, not a sacrament!
Modern interpreters must be careful of basing too much on the MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE because these were merging into the PASSIVE form in Koine Greek. Paul is said to have been baptized (PASSIVE) in Acts 9:18. The mode of Paul's baptism is not the issue, but his baptism itself is!

The key here is to properly read the verse. First it says "be baptized". This command is separated by "and". The other side of the conjunction is "wash away your sins, calling on His Name".

iow, one's sins are washed away WHEN a person "calls on His Name", which is just another way to describe trust in Christ's work.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Wansvic said:

This is your opinion and not biblical truth. No matter how many times you repeat it.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Wansvic said:

Receiving the Holy Spirit IS IS IS what salvation is. Believing in Christ is how one is saved and how one receives the Spirit. You are only kidding yourself.

ResidentAlien · Mar 6, 2022

In baptism we die to sin; that's why the primitive church baptized new converts immediately. If a person says they believe yet doesn't get baptized, thinking it's just a ritualistic formality, how can they die to sin? How can they be raised with Christ and put on Him?

We're saved by faith but if that faith doesn't lead to obedience it's not faith at all. If we aren't buried with Him in baptism, we're still alive to sin.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Wansvic said:

I've already addressed all these passages, so I don't need to repeat myself. None of them support your claims.

Instead, I'm going to show your error by an example in Scripture.

Acts 15-
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

So, the issue here was that certain believers who belonged to the Pharisee party taught that one must be circumcized in order to be saved.

These believers were claiming that a ritual (circumcision) was required to be saved. Just like you claiming the ritual of water baptism is required to be saved.

Circumcision was a sign that the person belonged to God. Water baptism is a sign that the person belongs to Christ.
Both rituals were an identification. That was the purpose.

9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

How is this not real clear? The issue is "faith" in salvation, not a ritual. Peter made the point that salvation is by faith (v.9 and 11).

Why don't you believe this?

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

Dying to sin is a choice. Moment by moment. That is the jist of Romans 6.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

These verses very clearly show that sin is a choice.

Red words are right choices. Blue words are bad choices (sin).

There is saving faith and lifestyle faith. They are different. We are saved by saving faith, which is our full trust alone in Christ's work on the cross on our behalf for salvation.

Lifestyle faith is the day to day trust in God for our necessities. We aren't saved, nor kept by lifestyle faith.

Water baptism is a ritual which identifies the person as a Christian, and possession of Christ. Water baptism illustrates the fact that when Christ died, was buried and then raised to life, we as believers were with Him.

Water baptism doesn't change anything. It is a ritual that demonstrates our identification as being in Him.

Wansvic · Mar 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
You've been shown the truth.

Salvation is THROUGH FAITH, not "by water".

I don't believe your opinion is true. See above. Eph 2:8 refutes your opinion. We are saved by grace through faith, not through water.

“ ‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you."

?????

Oh, you meant v.16

22:16 "be baptized and wash away your sins" These are both AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVES. This is an OT allusion to the ceremonial ablutions (cf. Lev. 11:25,28,40; 13:6,34,56; 14:8-9; 15:5-13,21-22,27; 16:26,28; 17:15-16; Num. 8:7,21; 19:19; Deut. 23:11). It is used here as a symbol of our spiritual cleansing in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Baptism was the early Church's public profession of faith.
Notice that the MIDDLE VOICE refers to both baptism (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE) and cleansing (AORIST MIDDLE IMPERATIVE). Paul could not wash away his sins, but he could baptize himself (Jewish practice for proselytes). Often it is said that immersion is the only NT pattern (cf. Romans 6 and Colossians 2), but here baptism is linked to the metaphor of washing (cf. Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5; Heb. 10:22). Theologically 1 Pet. 3:21 shows that it is a symbol, not a sacrament!
Modern interpreters must be careful of basing too much on the MIDDLE or PASSIVE VOICE because these were merging into the PASSIVE form in Koine Greek. Paul is said to have been baptized (PASSIVE) in Acts 9:18. The mode of Paul's baptism is not the issue, but his baptism itself is!

The key here is to properly read the verse. First it says "be baptized". This command is separated by "and". The other side of the conjunction is "wash away your sins, calling on His Name".

iow, one's sins are washed away WHEN a person "calls on His Name", which is just another way to describe trust in Christ's work.

I disagree with you as I have previously.

Wansvic · Mar 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

I've already addressed all these passages, so I don't need to repeat myself. None of them support your claims.

Instead, I'm going to show your error by an example in Scripture.

Acts 15-
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

So, the issue here was that certain believers who belonged to the Pharisee party taught that one must be circumcized in order to be saved.

These believers were claiming that a ritual (circumcision) was required to be saved. Just like you claiming the ritual of water baptism is required to be saved.

Circumcision was a sign that the person belonged to God. Water baptism is a sign that the person belongs to Christ.
Both rituals were an identification. That was the purpose.

9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

How is this not real clear? The issue is "faith" in salvation, not a ritual. Peter made the point that salvation is by faith (v.9 and 11).

Why don't you believe this?

Circumcision and keeping the law were OT requirements. The Jews were insisting that NT believers continue to follow the OT mandates in addition to those commanded in the NT. The account in no way diminishes the need for believers to obey the NT command to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin.

Peter's comment in verse 7 points to what occurred in Acts 10 where if you will recall he commanded the Gentiles to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

Wansvic · Mar 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Many still don't understand what Paul was explaining in the Romans account below. A spiritual reality actually takes place when individuals trust that what God says is true about water baptism and obey the command. It is in no way just a mere empty ritual.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6

FreeGrace2 · Mar 7, 2022

Wansvic said:

Then you are disagreeing with the Bible, for my view is directly from the Bible, properly understood.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 7, 2022

Wansvic said:

Water baptism is a NT requirement. So?

Again, you just miss the point. The Pharisee Jew believers taught that one HAD TO be circumcised to be saved. Just as your sect believes that one must be water baptised to be saved. Check out the title of this thread again. It is YOUR title.

So what. They were ALREADY saved and received the Holy Spirit. Acts 11:15-17 reveals your failure to discern between baptism by water and baptism by the Holy Spirit.

How about Paul's comment in 1 Cor 1:17?
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Now, since Paul was the world's premier evangelist, and the purpose and goal of evangelists is to get people SAVED, if he believed that water baptism was required for salvation, this statement in v.17 makes no sense.

It is clear from his comment that water baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation. Otherwise, he would not have written what he did.

And you have seen all the verses about salvation of which NONE include water baptism.

You are holding on to a false doctrine.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 7, 2022

Wansvic said:

You have just again revealed your extremely negative and false view about my view. I've NEVER said nor suggested that water baptism is "just a mere empty ritual". But that's what you seem to hear when you read my posts. Which shows that you are so severaly prejudiced that you can't even read straight. You unfortunately see the other view through very thick and heavily tinted lenses.

This makes discussion and communication with you just about impossible. Since your heavy prejudice obviously keeps you from even understanding what I post, how can I EVER get through to you? Oh, yeah. You don't want me to. That's how prejudiced you are.

Sad.

What I did say is that water baptism is COMMANDED of all believers. It is done as an IDENTIFICATION with Christ. A public statement.

There is NOTHING empty or "mere" about that.

This is clearly the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 11:15-17 until it sinks in.

This is all symbolic which is demonstrated by water baptism.

None of this is even related to water baptism. Paul was teaching about our POSITION IN CHRIST. Something you seem to have no knowledge about.

Wansvic · Mar 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Understanding the Bible requires rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Wansvic · Mar 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Baptism was not Paul's primary ministry. However, as seen he indeed water baptized people and explained it's purpose.

I believe what the Word actually says concerning when one's sins are remitted. (Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16...) And since salvation is not possible without remission of sin water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is required.

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