what are your thoughts of Apostle Kathryn Krick

SophieT · Mar 4, 2022

"presidente, post: 4792711, member: 164050"]Btw, on 'lining up' for a prophet--- if it is outside of a church gathering, I do not see a specific Biblical problem with it. 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' does not seem to fit situation the line-up, unless their is some attempt to judge after two words or prophets-- depending on how 'two or three' is interpreted as their seems to be a grammatical ambiguity. But prophecies being given in church certainly have an advantage.

who are the prophets? anyone who supposedly sounds like one? what is the criteria for judging who is a prophet?

I also believe 'personal prophecies' can edify others. The hypothetical unlearned one or unbeliever whose secrets are made manifest by prophecy in I Corinthians 14...experiences this in the assembly. And in the assembly... let all things be done unto edifying.

those are more likely a word of knowledge when something is revealed that the person giving the word did not know but it is known by the recipient. are you not aware that prophecy is also expounding on scripture? it is not all about telling the supposed future

Be that as it may, I do think the grace to prophesy might flow in spite of a church not following or attempting to follow the two or three rule. Some take 'let the other judge' as a thing individuals do silently or internally. I think of the church deciding to collect money after Agabus' signifying the famine as an application of 'let the other judge.'

well shall we all operate according to your opinion or what the Bible says?

The downside is if people line up, and they are getting false words. That's a problem, of course. And that is why some pastors react negatively to the idea of ministry being conducted this way.

oh you think so? I know of quite a few people who made life changing errors because of a false word...including one poor woman who married a man because several people 'prophesied' to her that she should. He was a sexual pervert and demanded some pretty awful things from her which she conceded to under the false guidance of others who told her to 'respect' this man. Myself and a few other people counselled with her and helped her as she was beside herself. She divorced this person and is now happily married to a man who respects and loves her. She is a changed person because she listened to GODLY counsel.

I know of those who have had false visions and dreams and left their employment or schooling to follow these phantoms and ended up shipwrecked on the rocks of false prophets. and so much more

you THINK false words can hurt? they can utterly destroy.

People who line up for 'prophetic words' are probably ostensibly lining up for prayer, actually, and some of them might be hoping for a prophetic word.

says who? you know what every person is 'really' wanting do you? MOST of them want that word they cannot ascertain for themselves because they have been taught to feed off other people rather than sit down at the banqueting table of the Lord

you consistently make opinion statements as though they were normative and true. they are simply and ONLY your subjective conclusions and again, as this practice is not biblical, God is not accountable to ANYONE...neither for their ignorance or their supposed well meaning errors

Random thoughts about some writings around the second century on the subject. The Shepherd of Hermas was against prophecies outside of the assembly, but very positive toward the prophecies from prophets in the church. Hermas also wrote during a time when prophets were actually allowed to prophesy in church, and wouldn't be forced to do so outside the assembly. If they were to prophesy at all. Didache would probably lead someone to a more reverent attitude toward any prophetic utterance from someone deemed to be a prophet or apostle.

yeah. right. smh

SophieT · Mar 4, 2022

presidente said:

gaslighting is actually what you do. how dare anyone call you out on it though

I never said you said such a thing

you opinionated on what was going through Paul's mind regarding the servant girl...took license to add to scripture...

Paul had spent 3 years in the desert being instructed by the Holy Spirit and he was confirmed by the Apostles who had personally witnessed and known the risen Christ and you posit the possibility that 'it was Paul's first time?' . what on earth. can you take the word of God at face value or must you insist on adding to it or inserting your opinion when it is without credence?

I responded with:

SophieT said:

LOOK at the text. Paul was sure. It is YOU that seems to think otherwise or would like, at the least, to entertain the thought he was just 'another guy'

there is nothing in my comment to suggest I was accusing you of the unforgiveable sin..as you said in yet another of your posts, and I was not insulting the Holy Spirit. those, are your imaginings and nothing to do with me or any intent I may have had at the time or may currently be circulating between my ears

I suppose if someone wants to demonize another, they can make up such accusations though

I am done explaining myself regarding the above so do not expect any further answer in regards to a continued probe. think what you want...my conscience is clear

I am now pointing out where I make specific comments to you or I am speaking in a general manner which you will see in the above post where I responded to your post to me

I do it for my own safety to avoid your personal interpretations of what I say so that anyone can see if you deviate from what I actually say

SophieT · Mar 4, 2022

I have a nice week-end planned with my husband, so kindly excuse my absence and don't confuse it with my inability to respond to some other post

SophieT · Mar 4, 2022

presidente said:

This is gaslighting. You said what I was saying was that the Holy Spirit was not sure. There was no way to get that out of my comment."

Here is how you should handle this. You say, "I'm sorry." You seek to be reconciled to your brother, like Jesus actually taught. Read Matthew 5.

You should not get caught up in some kind of pride game where if someone challenges you or disagrees with you, you have defend yourself and prove to others and yourself you are right. A lot of unbelievers have the character and courage to admit when they are wrong, and enough of a desire for conciliation to try to get along with people when they crossed a line.

You should try to live like Jesus taught, like the apostles taught, not just discuss religion on a forum. Talking about the Bible and behaving like a Christian are two different things.

Have I done you any wrong? I am being confrontational to you about real issues here. Is it wrong to confront someone who is out of line in public?

I prayed about it and I believe I should just place you on ignore and let God deal with your behavior

so I am going to do that

presidente · Mar 4, 2022

SophieT said:

My approach to the topic is this. God is God. I am not. You are not. If God has revealed a way He works, we have not right to say He will not work that way unless He has revealed it. God can work in ways we have not considered also.

So as far as Old Testament happenings go, I have no Biblical basis for saying God will not split a sea if He choses. It does not go against anything in the New Testament scriptures. In the New Testament, we see the Spirit enables some believers to prophesy. Is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you? No. Does the Bible encourage Christians to pray with faith and expect a response? Yes. Do we have great freedom in what we pray for? Yes. Is there any reason in scripture to think that it is wrong for someone with the gift of prophecy to ask God for something someone else asked about? No. Is there anything in the Bible that indicates it is wrong or sinful to ask someone else to pray for you about such things. No. So why would it be sinful for either the asker or the inquirer of the Lord to do this?

If you think my 'yes' or 'no' responses above are wrong, show me from the Bible as we can discuss.

I don't have a problem with that. Probably most decisions can be made with praying for wisdom and acknowledging God while making decisions Paul and his companions got into a situation where he was not allowed to preach in certain areas, and God gave Him a vision of the night. They were probably guessing and wondering about where to god.

No guesswork about it? Why don't you give me one reason to believe that first statement? I do not see any warnings along these lines in the Bible. Why would you think someone asking other believers something as simple as, "Please pray with me about this, and if the Lord reveals anything to you about it, please let me know?" Is that immature or contrary to scripture?

Some immature believers who want someone to tell them exciting things about their future or they want someone else to prophesy decisions to them so they don't have to learn how to make them might get in prophecy line ups. That doesn't mean everyone in a line like that is immature. And it doesn't mean that someone who asks something they know is prophetically gifted to pray and share if they get something from the Lord is immature.

I Corinthians 12 shows that gifts are distributed among the saints. Romans 12 also mentions we have different gifts differing according to the grace given to us. I Peter 4 is similar and says to minister our gifts one to another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. One person has one gift, and another another gift. There are times we should depend on one another and work together.

Ephesians 4 says,
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I would say the idea of receiving prophecy from one another-- even asking them to pray and share if they hear something-- is not at odds with Christ being our head, and that this is a false dichotomy. Christ's headship (mentioned in I Corinthians 11) in our lives is not at odds with gifts being distributed among believers for the common good in I Corinthians 12. I think you have a false dichotomy.

The norm. I did not say that. Look at what I wrote. I see no Biblical reason to condemn or oppose one person asking another person to pray and if that individual gets a prophecy from God, to share it. God is God. If He wants to speak. He may.

I suspect you have a fuzzy understanding of prophecy and words of knowledge. In Deuteronomy 18, we see that God would put His words in the prophets mouth. Peter, describing past prophets, said holy men of old spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Someone prophesying, genuinely, has words from God to share with others under the leadership of the Holy Ghost. Prophecies can be about past, present, or future, whatever God wants to say.

There is one reference to 'the word of knowledge.' So based on that word, I take word of knowledge to be when the Spirit imparts some word-- some message, information, etc.-- of knowledge to someone. Whether they are to pray about it, share it with others, or whatever, it is a word of knowledge.

The word of wisdom and the word of knowledge are first in the list, but Paul does not say they are rank ordered like he does with 'first apostles' later in the chapter. That would seem to be speculation on your part. 'Emergent churches' emphasizing 'the prophetic'-- I do not know if that is accurate. If NAR churches emphasize prophecy, that does not mean other believers should deemphasize it.

Paul emphasized prophecy. He said to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially that ye may prophesy. He passed on commandments of the Lord for church meetings. He did not even mention elders or pastors, but said, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.' He wrote, "For ye may all prophesy one by one" and "covet to prophesy".

Building on prophecies and dreams... going against scripture? Much of the content of scripture are architypical 'Thus saith the Lord' or first person prophecies. We have books full of these types of utterances in our Bibles. A vision helped Peter understand how to deal with Gentiles. There are dreams described in Genesis and Daniel, also. I don't really know anyone who wants to base their doctrine on dreams or prophecies as a substitute from the Bible. Churches I've visited for a while that seemed light on scripture did not go that far. The New Testament talks about dreams, visions, and prophecies in the last days. In the Old Testament, dreams, properly interpreted, could at times predict the futures. The Bible also speaks of God warning through dreams. Dreams, visions, and prophecies should be given due regard in line with the teaching of scripture about them.

presidente · Mar 4, 2022

@SophieT

Why would you think that? Of course there is common good in a genuine 'personal prophecy.' Even if there are two people in the room, one member of the body is ministering to another. When one member rejoices we should all rejoice. Is there any contribution toward the 'common good' if one person prays for another and the other person repents of a sin, or is healed? One person being ministered to contributes toward the whole.

In church, other people can be edified, too, through a prophecy to another. Can't reading scripture about Natha's prophecy to David, or Ahijah's prophecy to Jeroboam, or the son of the prophets to Jehu edify others? Paul gives the hypothetical example of an unbeliever or unlearned having the secrets of his heart made manifest through prophecy. He falls on his face and says God is truly among you.

This is one of those cases where we should accept what scripture teaches. It teaches that prophecy edifies in I Corinthians 14. one of the examples of the kinds of prophecies that might be given is making manifest the secrets of an unbelieving or uninstructed one's heart. We should accept the teaching of scripture that this edifies, and then we can consider how.

You may be relying on the English dictionary and popular terminology too much here. Here is a clear example where someone prophesied about the past:

II Chronicles 20
37 But Eliezer the son of Dodavah of Mareshah prophesied against Jehoshaphat, saying, “Because you have allied yourself with Ahaziah, the Lord has destroyed your works.” Then the ships were wrecked, so that they were not able to go to Tarshish. (NKJV)

You can also type 'prophe' in Biblegateway or look up the relevant Greek and Hebrew words on BibleHub and read the verses and surrounding contexts.

When I use 'prophesy', I am talking about the Biblical usage of the term, not specifically predicting the future-- though the Biblical type of prophesying can be about the future if that is what the Spirit wants the person to talk about.

I could say 'professional counseling' is as unbiblical as lining up to get prophesied over. Neither has a specific example in the Bible. They did not have psychologists. I would not be surprised if John Sanford might have prophesied while counseling with people, since he was also a psychiatrist or psychologist or something like that. As far as pastoral or ministry counseling goes, I am sure a lot of prophesying during one-on-one sessions has gone on for those who operate in that gift.

presidente · Mar 4, 2022

SophieT said:

I do not know what you are complaining about this time. If it's what you said I was saying about the Holy Spirit, which I wasn't, then that has been been quoted in previous posts and you can look up the thread.

If it's about prophesying, then I just responded to you using the quote function. I pointed out an example from II Chronicles of prophesying that was about the past in that post and scripture that gives good rule-of-thumb definitions of what 'prophesy' or 'prophecy' mean. 'Prophesying' in scripture does not equal 'predicting the future.' I think that may be a point of confusion in the thread. If we use the terminology to mean what they mean in our Bible translations, that might help with communication.

Gardenias · Mar 4, 2022

IMPRESSIVE.

The audacity of people ( general ) to think of THEMSELVES as the center of the universe!

None of our words or thoughts carry weight or validity BEFORE GOD'S WORD!

Yet an accounting will be required if what you ( any,not specific) say or interpret to an unbeliever,leads them NOT to God but AWAY from!

We all might benefit in trusting in God to reveal his word by the Holy Spirit.
Waiting on him to direct our paths.
Being SWIFT TO HEAR AND SLOW TO SPEAK.

presidente · Mar 4, 2022

SophieT said:

"presidente, post: 4792711, member: 164050"]

Each local church would need to figure that out to follow the commandments of the Lord in I Corinthians 14. I grew in churches that had labels like Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, or Full Gospel. The way they treated it, people who prophesied were treated kind of like prophets for how they functioned in relation to I Corinthians 14:29, but I don't think calling them prophets would have gone over well.

Expounding on scripture is not necessarily prophesying. Predicting the future is not necessarily prophesying in the Biblical sense of the word. We can look at scripture to understand Deuteronomy about prophets-- God puts His word into their mouths. We can look at Peter, 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' We can also look at the 'Thus says Yahweh' prophecies spoken in the first person (using "I" and "Me") and Agabus'"Thus saith the Holy Ghost" prophecies to get an idea of what it means.

I don't know if you mean it this way or realize it, but this sure comes off as awful snarky. I use 'I think' so as not to be too dogmatic about an interesting point in scripture, and you jump on the wording and treat it like we have to choose between my opinion and the Bible.

Do you do this with family? With co-workers? Jump on them with a snide remark based on a turn of phrase? That's a way to create an 'unsafe space' where other people do not want to interact with you or be close with you. It is not good for relationships. Honestly, I do not see how your comment ads to the conversation. Did you bother to look up Agabus' prophecy in Acts 11 or are you even familiar with the point I made? You could have commented on the issue I raised. Agabus signified by the Spirit that there would be a famine. The saints acted on it. Paul said to weigh prophecies carefully. There is something there to consider.

I was not a part of this situation. I cannot comment on whether you counseling a woman to divorce her husband, if that is what she did, was godly counsel. Giving advice that was instrumental in a divorce and maybe remarriage would definitely not be my go-to example. But you paint a pretty dim picture of the man. It is possible that someone could get a genuine prophesy that supported a decision to marry, and one or the other of them could fall into sin, the marriage could break up. It is also possible that false prophecy could lead someone to make a bad marriage choice. There is also the Biblical admonition that wives should respect their husbands.

If we know of someone who gets a false prophecy and that person chooses to follow it and messes up their life, that does not change Biblical doctrine about prophecies. It does not give us the right to make new laws or limitations on God about what content God will reveal through prophecies or who may prophesy to whom or in what type of scenario. The faith is once delivered to the saints. We have the gospel. We have salvation revealed. God can use prophecies to encourage people, impart spiritual gifts, encourage people in their ministries, and many other ways. Even someone who has gone through some difficulties with false prophecies must also obey scripture when it says to despise not prophesyings and to prove all things.

I had an issue with someone's vision, or their memory or interpretation thereof, and me dating and later marrying my wife that caused me a bit of concern. But I remained firm in what the Lord was showing me about it. After I had decided to proposed and was absolutely sure of it through prayer, someone prophesied over us in church about us going to many places and ministering to many people-- which has actually happened to some degree, though I expect more. A couple of other people said things that seemed to me to be prophecies, whether they knew it or not. One in particular said something that encouraged us, and I believe I heard the Lord speaking through him. I don't know if he knew that he was prophesying.

False words can hurt. But true words can encourage. Timothy received a spiritual gift through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

I have also had dreams that helped me understand a situation I was facing, caused me to understand what a relative I was praying for was growing for and motived me to intercede more. My wife has had dreams, too, dreaming of people doing things and seeing them 'in real life' also. I spoke with a man who is wanting to see an oncologist. He saw one in a dream, then saw the man's face at a hospital he was considering.

presidente · Mar 4, 2022

@SophieT

That sounds like a nice religious phrase--sit down at the banqueting table of the Lord. Can you show me where that phrase is used in the Bible in a way that is relevant to what we are discussion. Genuine prophesying is a holy thing. The Spirit moving people to speak is something we should really respect. We should not treat prophesying, hearing prophecies, or wanting to hear prophecies as a negative thing or something immature. Paul wrote to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you might prophesy. He said to covet to prophesy. This is presented as a very good thing in scripture. We would probably agree that Paul was not any less mature than we are when he wrote I Corinthians.

Does your 'sitting down at the banqueting table of the Lord' involve or include someone teaching you the Bible? If it does... you seemed rather critical of someone being 'taught to feed off other people.'

In this thread, you have said that prophesying is predicting the future. You have called lining up for prophesying 'fortune telling.' You have a lot of opinions, some of them potentially rather harmful, that you present rather dogmatically. If I present something as my opinion, you jump on my case about. I am more firm if I have a solid Biblical case, but present my experiences as such. I try not to put on airs, pretend to know more than I do, claim credentials that I do not have, etc.

Experiences are subjective. Subjective are not evil. Apostles and prophets in the Bible had visions. Paul wrote about some of his feelings--burning when someone in the church sinned, for example. Critics could call these things 'subjective. experience. So what? That doesn't make these things bad.

[/QUOTE]

This looks like snark to me. Have you read the Didache on how to deal with apostles and prophets or the Shepherd of Hermas on prophets in the church? If you haven't, why the sarcastic comment and shaking your head? If you have, why the sarcastic comment and why shake your heads?

Does your comment accomplish anything or add anything? Is the intention just to communicate snark and disdain?

Evmur · Mar 5, 2022

presidente said:

This looks like snark to me. Have you read the Didache on how to deal with apostles and prophets or the Shepherd of Hermas on prophets in the church? If you haven't, why the sarcastic comment and shaking your head? If you have, why the sarcastic comment and why shake your heads?

Does your comment accomplish anything or add anything? Is the intention just to communicate snark and disdain?[/QUOTE]
What is wrong and why these things [personal ministry] is neither the prayer or the prophesying.

What is wrong [and unbiblical] is the lining up for it.

presidente · Mar 5, 2022

Evmur said:

Does the Bible say that it is wrong to stand in a line for something? Do you ever go to the grocery store?

Why would standing in a line for prophecy... if the Lord should give one... be inherently sinful. If there was a line when Saul and his servant met Samuel with the gold coin they intended to give him as a gift, asking to inquire of the Lord, would that have been sinful? Wouldn't it have been a good thing if Elijah or the sons of the prophet had a line of people wanting to consult with them after Mt. Carmel instead of the prophets of Baal?

In actually, some of the churches where you might see a line like this have people lined up or standing around asking to be prayed for about things towards the end of the meeting or even after it. if someone is flowing in prophecy, then the people in the line might even say, "Can you pray for me?" rather than ask for a prophecy. I haven't seen people say, "Can you prophesy over me?" or words like it, much. There is a norm against doing that in some churches--- probably because of teachings that create a sin where there is not one in scripture.

My one concern with this in an actual church meeting is the church order thing. Sometimes this can happen after church if people start praying for each other, btw. In our assemblies, let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge.

The passage seems to imply disorderly people may still have been able to function in their gifts, too. For example an unbeliever could come in and all could speak with tongues and he could say ye are mad.

presidente · Mar 5, 2022

SophieT said:

I would much rather see repentance from you, rather than bizarre self-justification, so your conflict is not redirected elsewhere.

I have no use for the ignore function. People can say all kinds of bad things about you or spew false doctrine, and that helps you how? It keeps you from reading or responding? You could have helped and you weren't there? You can choose to not read or respond on your own. It's kind of like tricking yourself by setting your alarm an hour early.

If you promote a bad idea, I can contradict it, but you do not get the benefit, not directly from my post.

Gardenias · Mar 5, 2022

Wheeeee !
If this is how we behave here with disrespect,anger,judgement,harshness and negativity,DO WE REALLY THINK WE WILL BE TOGETHER IN HEAVEN?
Not directed at presidenete or anyone. I myself have been caught up in anti-christ ways.

presidente · Mar 5, 2022

I am all up for reconciliation. If I have done wrong, I want someone to point it out, something real, not a vague accusation with nothing to back it up.

I have also taken to addressing rude behavior online from Christians. And also, the Bible does actually teaching confronting offenses rather than ignoring them.

Magenta · Mar 5, 2022

presidente said:

Building on prophecies and dreams... going against scripture? Much of the content of scripture are architypical 'Thus saith the Lord' or first person prophecies. We have books full of these types of utterances in our Bibles. A vision helped Peter understand how to deal with Gentiles. There are dreams described in Genesis and Daniel, also. I don't really know anyone who wants to base their doctrine on dreams or prophecies as a substitute from the Bible. Churches I've visited for a while that seemed light on scripture did not go that far. The New Testament talks about dreams, visions, and prophecies in the last days. In the Old Testament, dreams, properly interpreted, could at times predict the futures. The Bible also speaks of God warning through dreams. Dreams, visions, and prophecies should be given due regard in line with the teaching of scripture about them.

“’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters
will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.'" Acts 2:17

Evmur · Mar 6, 2022

presidente said:

But the kingdom of heaven is not a grocery store and that is just what is so all wrong with asking people to come to the front or lining up.
People come with their money but not the correct currency [faith]
Come to the front is a work .. you can make light of it if you like. People are told or it is implied that if they will come to the front they will get the help from God that they need. Their heart toward God is "You said come to the front, I've come to the front therefore You are obliged to give me what I want" ... some may get what they desire, most will not. The ones who do get help are hyped up and the most who do not are hushed up.

Prophecy and healing are Body works, the right place for ministry is in the assembly where there are no white suited super stars.

KelbyofGod · Mar 6, 2022

presidente said:

Praise God you are here.
Your explanations of how God ministering to one blesses the whole'was very well said. I've only browsed some of this page and I intend to read more.

I also liked your explanation of how one individual may ask another to pray for or with them and if they get anything, to share it. Why someone would say that is a wrong...unless the person does it for long enough that they SHOULD be learning how to hear from God by him/herself. But then God will cut off the third-party answers to the praying person anyway. Or the nature of the answers is less nurturing and a little more admonishing. .

Thanks for posting in love.

Love in Jesus to you,
Kelby

presidente · Mar 6, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

Thanks for the comments and encouragement.

The thing is, if genuine prophesying is going on, and someone asks someone else if they have a prophecy for them or to pray and ask God.... if God does not want to say anything, He won't. The operation of the genuine gift depends on the Spirit to give prophetic words. The person they asked can pray or encourage from scripture.

If there is a line of people wanting prophecies and it's false, they could cold read or say something generic or some junk that pops into their head. That sort of thing is dangerous, and that is why there is an advantage to prophecies, even personal prophecies, being given in the assembly, and the assembly actually applying 'let the other judge'. I don't think the Pentecostal practice of it being an individual thing in your own heart... if there is even a conscious attempt at that in many churches that still allow prophesying from the congregation... is really enough. Of course, Pentecostals like Protestants and Roman Catholics in general, kind of have this idea that they shouldn't speak unless they are clergy or clergy authorizes it, with Pentecostals having an exception for tongues and interpretation and prophecy.

cv5 · Mar 6, 2022

CS1 said:

I never take the bait when somebody calls themself "Apostle" and offers "deliverance". They immediately get the door slammed in their face.

what are your thoughts of Apostle Kathryn Krick

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