Precious friend, have you "sought counsel" on This?: Post #2,799
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Saved by Water
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The three recent posts I shared with 2TG were to see if he is able to adopt a more conciliatory and humble approach to the way he communicates with others. I found that at the present time he is unable to do that.
In a way I was baiting him to find out what kind of spirit is motivating his commentary. Yes, he uses scriptural references which are truth, but it's the way he delivers them, and the lack of space he gives to others to allow them to come to their own conclusions, which has the effect of rendering his 'ministry' ineffective.
There's a spirit behind him that is driving him into frustration, indignation, and into to giving out ill-tempered responses. All that often does is create an indignant response in the hearers, and waters down the truth and the benefits from that.
He needs to not press so hard on the accelerator, and give the Lord space to bring hearers/readers to the conclusions He wants to bring them to as relevant to their walk. Prophets, Christians that have the motivational gift of expounding the will of God into a matter, need to learn how to bring their own personality characteristics under control so that the pure truth from our Lord gets fair play. This applies to you and others that may have that bent, too. 2TG is not the only one struggling on CC with this. We need to realise the shove we are feeling from behind to bulldoze our opinion over others is unlikely to be coming from the Holy Spirit.
True prophets work for the Lord, and at His direction, and are not driven by personalty or ego.
In a way I was baiting him to find out what kind of spirit is motivating his commentary. Yes, he uses scriptural references which are truth, but it's the way he delivers them, and the lack of space he gives to others to allow them to come to their own conclusions, which has the effect of rendering his 'ministry' ineffective.
There's a spirit behind him that is driving him into frustration, indignation, and into to giving out ill-tempered responses. All that often does is create an indignant response in the hearers, and waters down the truth and the benefits from that.
He needs to not press so hard on the accelerator, and give the Lord space to bring hearers/readers to the conclusions He wants to bring them to as relevant to their walk. Prophets, Christians that have the motivational gift of expounding the will of God into a matter, need to learn how to bring their own personality characteristics under control so that the pure truth from our Lord gets fair play. This applies to you and others that may have that bent, too. 2TG is not the only one struggling on CC with this. We need to realise the shove we are feeling from behind to bulldoze our opinion over others is unlikely to be coming from the Holy Spirit.
True prophets work for the Lord, and at His direction, and are not driven by personalty or ego.
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I encourage you to say your harsh words to me via Zoom or Web Meeting. Are you willing to do that? Is this what you do to people who have cancer? Do you mock them? Do you belittle those who you think are "unwell"? Do you really believe that belittling and baiting people will cause them to somehow become "better" and like you? Is this how you treated your wife when you had an issue with her? You told her that she was sick and conniving? Is this how you dealt with your children? And what about employees or subordinates?
Do you lure your wife, children, employees, and subordinates into traps as well?
So, are you willing to look into my face and tell me how sick and divisive I am?
Do you lure your wife, children, employees, and subordinates into traps as well?
So, are you willing to look into my face and tell me how sick and divisive I am?
I'll tell you what, Tony . . . if you're too afraid to do this by yourself, I encourage you to smash me into the ground with the company and protection of your pastor. In fact, we can have a conference meeting with your entire church staff so that you won't be afraid. I'll be there by myself so that you won't be intimidated in any way. Perhaps the lot of you will beat me up with your hate-filled words. It won't bother me at all. I encourage you to do this.
Matthew 9:10-13 NLT - "Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples, including Tony to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when Tony saw this, he asked Jesus's disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with such scum?" When Jesus heard this, he said, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do." Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
Wow. Still going, after 142 pages and 2,825 posts.
The title of this thread is what is wrong. There is no verse that says "saved by water".
There IS a verse about being "saved THROUGH water", and that is where most of the problem is.
To be saved THROUGH water means to be saved FROM water. Let's see what the Bible says about this.
1 Pet 3:20 - to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
In biblehub.com out of 28 translations, only 6 showed "saved by water". Here are some very clear ones:
New Living Translation
those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
New American Standard Bible
who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NASB 1995
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NASB 1977
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Amplified Bible
who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.
Contemporary English Version
They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.
Weymouth New Testament
who in ancient times had been disobedient, while God's longsuffering was patiently waiting in the days of Noah during the building of the Ark, in which a few persons--eight in number--were brought safely through the water.
The water couldn't have saved them. What did the water do to everyone else on the planet? It drowned them. Killed them.
Only the 8 that were INSIDE the ark were saved FROM the water. It is being INSIDE the Ark that saved the 8 from being killed.
Here is the Greek word translated "saved"-
diasózó: to bring safely through (a danger), to save thoroughly
Original Word: διασώζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diasózó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-as-odze'-o)
Definition: to bring safely through (a danger), to save thoroughly
Usage: I save (rescue) through (some danger), bring safely to, escaped to.
HELPS Word-studies
1295 diasṓzō (from 1223 /diá, "through, thoroughly," which intensifies 4982 /sṓzō, "save") – properly, save all the way through, i.e. completely deliver from danger and into safety (note the force of the prefix, dia); literally, "to save all the way across" which brings someone through danger and into a safe condition ("thoroughly rescued").
What is clear is that water never saves anyone. It kills when it rises above one's head. They drown by suffocation.
Ask the Egyptian army about water. Or the population of the earth in Noah's day after all that rain, etc.
Water kills. The ark saves.
And it is the ark that symbolizes Jesus Christ the Savior.
How people can get so confused as to think that one's soul salvation is on the basis of literal water is amazing.
The title of this thread is what is wrong. There is no verse that says "saved by water".
There IS a verse about being "saved THROUGH water", and that is where most of the problem is.
To be saved THROUGH water means to be saved FROM water. Let's see what the Bible says about this.
1 Pet 3:20 - to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
In biblehub.com out of 28 translations, only 6 showed "saved by water". Here are some very clear ones:
New Living Translation
those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
New American Standard Bible
who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NASB 1995
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
NASB 1977
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Amplified Bible
who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.
Contemporary English Version
They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.
Weymouth New Testament
who in ancient times had been disobedient, while God's longsuffering was patiently waiting in the days of Noah during the building of the Ark, in which a few persons--eight in number--were brought safely through the water.
The water couldn't have saved them. What did the water do to everyone else on the planet? It drowned them. Killed them.
Only the 8 that were INSIDE the ark were saved FROM the water. It is being INSIDE the Ark that saved the 8 from being killed.
Here is the Greek word translated "saved"-
diasózó: to bring safely through (a danger), to save thoroughly
Original Word: διασώζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diasózó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-as-odze'-o)
Definition: to bring safely through (a danger), to save thoroughly
Usage: I save (rescue) through (some danger), bring safely to, escaped to.
HELPS Word-studies
1295 diasṓzō (from 1223 /diá, "through, thoroughly," which intensifies 4982 /sṓzō, "save") – properly, save all the way through, i.e. completely deliver from danger and into safety (note the force of the prefix, dia); literally, "to save all the way across" which brings someone through danger and into a safe condition ("thoroughly rescued").
What is clear is that water never saves anyone. It kills when it rises above one's head. They drown by suffocation.
Ask the Egyptian army about water. Or the population of the earth in Noah's day after all that rain, etc.
Water kills. The ark saves.
And it is the ark that symbolizes Jesus Christ the Savior.
How people can get so confused as to think that one's soul salvation is on the basis of literal water is amazing.
Those who wish to be saved must be buried with Christ in order for the body of sin to be destroyed. According to Peter and Paul this occurs in obedience to God's command to be water baptized. (Rom 6:3-6, Acts 22:16, 2:38)
"Water alone does not save a person just as the flood water alone did not save Noah and his family. Salvation was found in the ark. And only those who obeyed God’s plan to enter the ark were saved... Baptism is the water through which we receive salvation, but Jesus Himself is the ark of salvation.
The Pulpit Commentary supports this explanation of I Peter 3:21: “The literal translation will be, ‘Which (as) antitype is saving you also, (namely) baptism’; that is, the water which is saving you is the antitype of the water of the Flood.” It concludes, “Baptism doth save us, but not the mere outward ceremony. . . . The outward and visible sign doth not save if separated from the inward and spiritual grace. The first is necessary, for it is an outward sign appointed by Christ; but it will not save without the second.” Excerpt New Birth; Bernard.
"Water alone does not save a person just as the flood water alone did not save Noah and his family. Salvation was found in the ark. And only those who obeyed God’s plan to enter the ark were saved... Baptism is the water through which we receive salvation, but Jesus Himself is the ark of salvation.
The Pulpit Commentary supports this explanation of I Peter 3:21: “The literal translation will be, ‘Which (as) antitype is saving you also, (namely) baptism’; that is, the water which is saving you is the antitype of the water of the Flood.” It concludes, “Baptism doth save us, but not the mere outward ceremony. . . . The outward and visible sign doth not save if separated from the inward and spiritual grace. The first is necessary, for it is an outward sign appointed by Christ; but it will not save without the second.” Excerpt New Birth; Bernard.
To clarify, for those who may not have read your entire post, you begin the post by saying no verse says "saved by water." However, afterward there is mention of at least 6 translations that do say saved by water.
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV
Notice verse 21 states that baptism now saves us. It should be noted that all conversion records include the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, at times before and others after receiving the Holy Ghost. At no time was the need to be water baptized excluded. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) It was Jesus who stated it was to be done to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt. 3:15)
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV
Notice verse 21 states that baptism now saves us. It should be noted that all conversion records include the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, at times before and others after receiving the Holy Ghost. At no time was the need to be water baptized excluded. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) It was Jesus who stated it was to be done to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt. 3:15)
Please share any verse that teaches this. otoh, I can easily provide over 20 verses that plainly say that salvation/eternal life is on the basis of believing in Christ. Nothing else in those verses.
No, it occurs when the Holy Spirit is given. That means the baptism of the Spirit.
What do you mean by "flood water ALONE didn't save Noah"??? Of course the flood water didn't save him. Not even close. The flood water would have KILLED him if he had not been in the ark. It was the ark that saved his hide.
Correct. Not water. Therefore, your interpretation of 1 Pet 3:20-21 is incorrect.
The only baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT water.
Of course you will cite commentaries that agree with your view. And there just as many that don't.
you are simply misunderstanding 1 Pet 3:20-21.
Jesus differentiated between literal water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does NOT involve literal water.
We see this play out in the account of Cornelius. When he believed and received the Spirit, the Jewish believers understood immediately what Jesus meant by His differentiation between water and the Spirit.
Note that Cornelius received the Spirit BEFORE he was water baptised.
No, it occurs when the Holy Spirit is given. That means the baptism of the Spirit.
What do you mean by "flood water ALONE didn't save Noah"??? Of course the flood water didn't save him. Not even close. The flood water would have KILLED him if he had not been in the ark. It was the ark that saved his hide.
Correct. Not water. Therefore, your interpretation of 1 Pet 3:20-21 is incorrect.
The only baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT water.
Of course you will cite commentaries that agree with your view. And there just as many that don't.
you are simply misunderstanding 1 Pet 3:20-21.
Jesus differentiated between literal water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does NOT involve literal water.
We see this play out in the account of Cornelius. When he believed and received the Spirit, the Jewish believers understood immediately what Jesus meant by His differentiation between water and the Spirit.
Note that Cornelius received the Spirit BEFORE he was water baptised.
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This whole discussion can be resolved by simply applying common sense.
How would water have saved anyone? All the examples in the Bible show that water KILLS, not saves.
Earth's population, except 8 people were KILLED by the flood water. The entire Egyptian army was KILLED by water.
There are NO instances where water saves anyone. Except by drinking to stay alive.
And Jesus used that example to demonstrate that faith in Christ is what saves with the woman at the well.
John 4-
10Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?
12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
So, the ONLY time "water saves" is when a person is dehydrated.
Being dunked below water will only KILL if applied long enough; which isn't all that long.
There is NO salvation in water baptism. It is a ritual to be obeyed and observed by SAVED people.
How would water have saved anyone? All the examples in the Bible show that water KILLS, not saves.
Earth's population, except 8 people were KILLED by the flood water. The entire Egyptian army was KILLED by water.
There are NO instances where water saves anyone. Except by drinking to stay alive.
And Jesus used that example to demonstrate that faith in Christ is what saves with the woman at the well.
John 4-
10Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?
12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
So, the ONLY time "water saves" is when a person is dehydrated.
Being dunked below water will only KILL if applied long enough; which isn't all that long.
There is NO salvation in water baptism. It is a ritual to be obeyed and observed by SAVED people.
Believing in Jesus includes trusting what He says is true. Those who obey Jesus will receive salvation. (Heb. 5:9, Matt. 7:21, Mark 16:16)
The scripture that expresses that those who wish to be saved must be buried with Christ in order for the body of sin to be destroyed is found in Paul's letter to the Romans. Notice verse 5 of Romans 6, states a condition, it says IF one is planted in the likeness of his death (by baptism-verse 3) they will be in the likeness of his resurrection. Verse 6 goes on to point out that the old man is crucified with Jesus so the body of sin might be destroyed. The spiritual reality of one's sins being remitted occurs upon ones obedience to baptism into Jesus' death as expressed in Acts 2:38 and 22:16.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6 KJV
The scripture that expresses that those who wish to be saved must be buried with Christ in order for the body of sin to be destroyed is found in Paul's letter to the Romans. Notice verse 5 of Romans 6, states a condition, it says IF one is planted in the likeness of his death (by baptism-verse 3) they will be in the likeness of his resurrection. Verse 6 goes on to point out that the old man is crucified with Jesus so the body of sin might be destroyed. The spiritual reality of one's sins being remitted occurs upon ones obedience to baptism into Jesus' death as expressed in Acts 2:38 and 22:16.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6 KJV
Cornelius and the others did receive the Holy Ghost first, as did the 120 on the Day of Pentecost. However, that was not all that God required. Peter commanded they submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus as well.
Take note that Peter begins his exchange with the Gentiles by first stating that it is THROUGH HIS NAME (Jesus) that believers shall receive remission of sins. This aligns exactly with Peter's comment to the Jews: "be baptized everyone of us IN THE NAME of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin..." And Ananias' statement to Paul in Acts 22:16; "be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43
The requirement to receive the Holy Ghost in no way excluded the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of one's sins. This truth is expressed in the biblical record of all groups of people. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)
Take note that Peter begins his exchange with the Gentiles by first stating that it is THROUGH HIS NAME (Jesus) that believers shall receive remission of sins. This aligns exactly with Peter's comment to the Jews: "be baptized everyone of us IN THE NAME of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin..." And Ananias' statement to Paul in Acts 22:16; "be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43
The requirement to receive the Holy Ghost in no way excluded the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of one's sins. This truth is expressed in the biblical record of all groups of people. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)
Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He did not say get baptized after you are saved. (Mark 16:16)
Throughout the biblical record we see people placing their trust in God through obedience to His commands. Whether the action made sense had no bearing on whether or not to obey. God said to do it, so they did it. I would venture to say that those in the OT questioned why they had to submit to circumcision.
Those who trust the God inspired NT command will obey and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive remission of sin. To argue that it is not necessary for salvation is foolish since the biblical record shows everyone was commanded to do it. The bible gives proof that whenever God requires something it is for a specific purpose. The significance of the foreshadows in the OT was not known. But each and every one of God's instructions were given for a specific reason that was later realized.
It's all about believing God by faith. Doing so will bring about a spiritual reality.,
Throughout the biblical record we see people placing their trust in God through obedience to His commands. Whether the action made sense had no bearing on whether or not to obey. God said to do it, so they did it. I would venture to say that those in the OT questioned why they had to submit to circumcision.
Those who trust the God inspired NT command will obey and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and receive remission of sin. To argue that it is not necessary for salvation is foolish since the biblical record shows everyone was commanded to do it. The bible gives proof that whenever God requires something it is for a specific purpose. The significance of the foreshadows in the OT was not known. But each and every one of God's instructions were given for a specific reason that was later realized.
It's all about believing God by faith. Doing so will bring about a spiritual reality.,
Those Pure and Righteous Leaders, Judges, kings and Prophets all understood. Scripture was clear (to them). The rest, however, God placed them into a "deep sleep" so that they could not understand, hence, the Veil of Moses.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear, these things will be perfectly clear.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear, these things will be perfectly clear.
Right. And He said the ONLY WAY to the Father was THROUGH Him. Not "through water".
That has nothing to do with lifestyle or obeying commands regarding the law. The Biblical sense of obey in regard to salvation is to believe in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.
You are mixing up what is literal with what is symbolic. 1 Pet 3:21 is SYMBOLIC only.
That is by faith, not by getting wet.
No one has ever been saved through the act of water baptism. In every biblical example, the people believed and then were water baptized.
This baptism refers strictly to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.
This refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly seen in Acts 11 when the Jews who accompanied Peter recounted Cornelius' conversion.
None of this refers to water baptism.
And the KJV really BLEW IT in 1 Pet 3:21. No one can be saved BY water. People can be KILLED by water.
That has nothing to do with lifestyle or obeying commands regarding the law. The Biblical sense of obey in regard to salvation is to believe in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.
You are mixing up what is literal with what is symbolic. 1 Pet 3:21 is SYMBOLIC only.
That is by faith, not by getting wet.
No one has ever been saved through the act of water baptism. In every biblical example, the people believed and then were water baptized.
This baptism refers strictly to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.
This refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly seen in Acts 11 when the Jews who accompanied Peter recounted Cornelius' conversion.
None of this refers to water baptism.
And the KJV really BLEW IT in 1 Pet 3:21. No one can be saved BY water. People can be KILLED by water.
I like what Ezekiel was instructed to record for us under the direction of God. God said that He would give His Elect a New Heart and a New Spirit SO THAT we would obey. There's a bit more to "it" that just believing. As Christians, we must understand these mechanics so that we can conclusively determine who and what we are. If I had been taught these things, then I would have known that my former lifestyle proved that my Spiritual Father was the Devil, thus having been taken captive to do his will.
Note the Boldfaced "So That" below . . . "so that" proceeds obedience, for it is the procuring cause of genuine obedience:
Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Note the Boldfaced "So That" below . . . "so that" proceeds obedience, for it is the procuring cause of genuine obedience:
Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Sure that was all that is required for savlation. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Your version of Eph 2:8 would be "we are saved by grace THROUGH water". But Paul didn't write that.
No one argues this. It is the command of a saved person, as an act of identification with Jesus Christ. The act SYMBOLIZES our "death, burial and resurrection" of Jesus. Have you been resurrected already? Of course not.
Why don't you believe this? You just stated that believing is not all that is required. Now you quote Acts 10:43 which REFUTES your beliefs.
The requirement to receive the Holy Spirit is by faith as well. Don't you believe Gal 3:2,5?
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
From your posts, the conclusion is that you DON'T believe these verses.
I'm well aware of all the verses about baptism. The problem is that you seem to refute and resist accepting the significance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which has NOTHING to do with water.
Literal water is symbolic of the baptism of the Spirit.
No one argues this. It is the command of a saved person, as an act of identification with Jesus Christ. The act SYMBOLIZES our "death, burial and resurrection" of Jesus. Have you been resurrected already? Of course not.
Why don't you believe this? You just stated that believing is not all that is required. Now you quote Acts 10:43 which REFUTES your beliefs.
The requirement to receive the Holy Spirit is by faith as well. Don't you believe Gal 3:2,5?
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
From your posts, the conclusion is that you DON'T believe these verses.
I'm well aware of all the verses about baptism. The problem is that you seem to refute and resist accepting the significance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which has NOTHING to do with water.
Literal water is symbolic of the baptism of the Spirit.
This verse and from v.9-20 are NOT found in the oldest manuscripts. That means they were ADDED later on. Therefore, they are NOT inspired verses. The second part of v.16 clarifies the issue of salvation. Those who don't believe won't be saved.
Whoever wrote v.9-20 (NOT Luke) could well have had the baptism of the Holy Spirit in mind, but just wasn't as clear as he should have been. In any case, that verse wasn't inspired and ISN'T part of God's Word. It was added later on.
Yes, of course we do. And we see people FAILING to do that as well. Saved people, in fact. Trusting God through obedience is called "lifestyle faith". It DOES NOT SAVE. It is for those who ARE SAVED.
The exodus generation is a perfect example. They repeatedly failed to trust God for their daily provisions. So God prevented any of the first generation to enter the promised land. Their failure resulted in loss of blessing and reward. Even Moses lost out, and for just ONE act of disobedience.
Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. This included Moses himself. We know he was saved or he wouldn't have appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.
So, what was that one act of disobedience that kept him out of the promised land? When God told him to "speak to the rock" for water for the people, he was so mad at them he STRUCK the rock. iow, he disobeyed God.
Whoever wrote v.9-20 (NOT Luke) could well have had the baptism of the Holy Spirit in mind, but just wasn't as clear as he should have been. In any case, that verse wasn't inspired and ISN'T part of God's Word. It was added later on.
Yes, of course we do. And we see people FAILING to do that as well. Saved people, in fact. Trusting God through obedience is called "lifestyle faith". It DOES NOT SAVE. It is for those who ARE SAVED.
The exodus generation is a perfect example. They repeatedly failed to trust God for their daily provisions. So God prevented any of the first generation to enter the promised land. Their failure resulted in loss of blessing and reward. Even Moses lost out, and for just ONE act of disobedience.
Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. This included Moses himself. We know he was saved or he wouldn't have appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.
So, what was that one act of disobedience that kept him out of the promised land? When God told him to "speak to the rock" for water for the people, he was so mad at them he STRUCK the rock. iow, he disobeyed God.
FreeGrace2 said:
The Biblical sense of obey in regard to salvation is to believe in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.
Absolutely. I was simply pointing out what is required for salvation. Receiving the "new heart" and "new nature" through the new birth is what God does to those who believe.
It is really sad that so many Christians haven't been taught all the mechanics involved. So many don't even understand what the filling of the Holy Spirit is, and what the filling is for. Many confuse the filling with the indwelling.
The Biblical sense of obey in regard to salvation is to believe in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.
Absolutely. I was simply pointing out what is required for salvation. Receiving the "new heart" and "new nature" through the new birth is what God does to those who believe.
It is really sad that so many Christians haven't been taught all the mechanics involved. So many don't even understand what the filling of the Holy Spirit is, and what the filling is for. Many confuse the filling with the indwelling.