The 144k Jews In Heaven during the Great Tribulation.

[Absolutely]

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

there are the living in Christ also

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice the number of the tribes of Israel first appear ?

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


(and then the gentile nations appear ?)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. ( Christians )

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4, 9-10, 14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the ot faithful who were raised up with Christ , and the Christians who come through the tribulation the New Testament time period

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1, 4, 7-10‬ ‭KJV‬

 

[Runningman]

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

The setting is not in the great tribulation. This is a vision of Mount Zion in the Heavenly Jerusalem and something that is confirmed elsewhere in scripture: Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

"Redeemed from the Earth" means purchased. The church is purchased by the blood of Christ. "Redeemed from the earth" does not mean rapture or resurrection or anything in particular. It's just a vision of the first 144K people to obtain salvation through Christ, I believe. That's why they are called the firstfruits according to Revelation or the church of the firstborn in Hebrews. They're currently in heaven singing to God around the throne and dwelling with Jesus.

God bless

 

[Unw0rthyS3rvant]

What?

Couldn't make your point real in the other thread?

I will proceed to the exit and engage no further with you!

 

[Absolutely]

What?

Couldn't make your point real in the other thread?

I will proceed to the exit and engage no further with you!

Those of your caliber and attitude got that thread locked.
It is a bible study on the 144k.

way over your head as you have demonstrated.

 

[Unw0rthyS3rvant]

Those of your caliber and attitude got that thread locked.
It is a bible study on the 144k.

way over your head as you have demonstrated.

Fyi I never posted in Marilyn's thread about the "rapture".

I do not consider rapture threads to be important on a christian site bc it's too controversial.

Btw, I don't don't think you can show me much of anything of the word that the Holy Spirit cannot and has not shown me.

 

[Absolutely]

Fyi I never posted in Marilyn's thread about the "rapture".

I do not consider rapture threads to be important on a christian site bc it's too controversial.

Btw, I don't don't think you can show me much of anything of the word that the Holy Spirit cannot and has not shown me.

Never said you did.
Just responded to you snarky attitude.
nothing more, nothing less.
If you can not handle pushback then BDF is going to just make you mad.

 

[Absolutely]

Btw, I don't don't think you can show me much of anything of the word that the Holy Spirit cannot and has not shown me.

Not my Job.
My job is simply to report what is in the word.
You can reframe it, challenge it, or just state your opposing or confirming views.

 

[kleronomos]

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


This does NOT SAY RAPTURED, but 'sealed'. WHAT ELSE IS WRITTEN?
You stated it to be a PRE TRIB RAPT but

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Is there any other TIMING written surrounding this topic?


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

[Runningman]

Not my Job.
My job is simply to report what is in the word.
You can reframe it, challenge it, or just state your opposing or confirming views.

Unless, of course, you're wrong about this then the other option is you're standing corrected. I think we should always remain open to that possibility.

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


This does NOT SAY RAPTURED, but 'sealed'. WHAT ELSE IS WRITTEN?
You stated it to be a PRE TRIB RAPT but

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Is there any other TIMING written surrounding this topic?


Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

You are creating that.
I never said the 144k are a pretrib rapture.
I have said they are vividly portrayed in heaven in rev 14
About mid trib.

i am not anti pretrib as are some that are hamstrung by that starting place.
Eschatology, would be way better approached by an open mind, not jettisoning research by your opponent.
You are automatically placing yourself in a hamstrung dynamic.

 

[Absolutely]

Unless, of course, you're wrong about this then the other option is you're standing corrected. I think we should always remain open to that possibility.

Ok,I am teachable.
Post where i got it wrong.

 

[cv5]

Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.

I would agree with you there is no place whatsoever for an 144K Israelite firstfruits harvest in a post-trib dynamic. Not only that there is no place for Israelite-only preaching in the book of Revelation in a post-trib dynamic. What ever happened to the mandate that the Church should preach?

Post-tribbers have no concept that the 70th week of Daniel tribulation has primarily to do with the final redemption of Daniel's people ISRAEL.

The bigger problem is the post-tribbers do not know what to do with Israel at all. Nor do the amillennialists or the preterists.

It is also clear that there is not the slightest indication in the book of Revelation that there is a one time only once for all resurrection at the exact moment in time of the Second Coming. It's simply not there.

The Bible teaches that Jesus comes once for His Saints (the pretrib rapture), and seven years later WITH his Saints at the Second Coming.

 

[Runningman]

Ok,I am teachable.
Post where i got it wrong.

Read post #3 in this thread.

"Redeemed from the earth" doesn't mean rapture. It literally means "purchased from the Earth" and it's about the church being purchased by the blood of Christ. Rapture is actually a tertiary, or secondary, doctrine in the Bible and doesn't appear very many places. I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision.

 

[Absolutely]

Read post #3 in this thread.

"Redeemed from the earth" doesn't mean rapture. It literally means "purchased from the Earth" and it's about the church being purchased by the blood of Christ. Rapture is actually a tertiary, or secondary, doctrine in the Bible and doesn't appear very many places. I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision.

I am aware of the definition of redeemed.
My point is they are in heaven in rev 14 setting.

How they got there could be they were raptured, or martyred and resurrected.

I cant remember if i said "raptured".

Could be.

Maybe martyred. It does not say.

 

[Absolutely]

The setting is not in the great tribulation. This is a vision of Mount Zion in the Heavenly Jerusalem and something that is confirmed elsewhere in scripture: Hebrews.

Hebrews 12:22-23 KJV
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

"Redeemed from the Earth" means purchased. The church is purchased by the blood of Christ. "Redeemed from the earth" does not mean rapture or resurrection or anything in particular. It's just a vision of the first 144K people to obtain salvation through Christ, I believe. That's why they are called the firstfruits according to Revelation or the church of the firstborn in Hebrews. They're currently in heaven singing to God around the throne and dwelling with Jesus.

God bless

"""The setting is not in the great tribulation. This is a vision of Mount Zion in the Heavenly Jerusalem and something that is confirmed elsewhere in scripture: Hebrews."""
We are possibly in agreement.


The setting of the chapter is the great tribulation.

The setting of the 144k is heaven.

The op is on that subject. The setting in heaven of the 144k and the setting of the chapter being the gt.

So again i invite any challenge to prove me wrong.
Welcome any constructive input.

 

[Absolutely]

Read post #3 in this thread.

"Redeemed from the earth" doesn't mean rapture. It literally means "purchased from the Earth" and it's about the church being purchased by the blood of Christ. Rapture is actually a tertiary, or secondary, doctrine in the Bible and doesn't appear very many places. I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision.

""" I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision."""

Ok
The 144k have nothing whatsoever to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4.

Let me clarify....in a factual clear tone ( i am not yelling, mad or any of that....so sorry if it appears that way)
I have never, ever said the 144k in heaven is the rapture.

You literally made that up. Then framed me into some hyper rapture radical that can not discern the word due to an obsession with the rapture.

....off of a imagined perception.

Rapture is just a catching up.

Now how ironic that "catching up" is forbidden in the 144k , when it is obvious they got there somehow ,as did Jesus in acts 1, enoch, and the church in 1 thes 4..

" raptured, taken, ushered", any of them fits.

 

[cv5]

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is fascinating that the setting is in the Great Tribulation ,and we see a first Fruit Harvest of ethnic Jews in heaven and they are Before the Throne of God.
The fact that these are first fruits indicates that a Maine Harvest of "like kind" (ethnic Jews), would soon follow, because "first fruits" ( the 144k), indicates a harvest.
It is also fascinating that just a few verses later in verse 14 we see the main Harvest, which is also Jewish. This is all happening during the Great Tribulation.
Now that means that 1Thessalonians 4, which would be the dead in Christ Resurrected and raptured, cannot happen in anything but a pre-tribulation dynamic.
Because you cannot have the dead in Christ Rising first if they are preceded by the Jewish Harvest of Revelation 14.
In other words ,you can look at it this way, we know the dead in Christ rise first, and the "alive ones" after that. So how can 1st Thessalonians 4 apply to the coming of Jesus on white horses? because that is after the Harvest of Jews in Revelation 14.

Furthermore, 1Thes 5:1-11 makes no sense whatsoever unless couched in a pre-trib dynamic.

 

[Runningman]

""" I think you're looking for the rapture (particularly the pre-trib) so intensely in the scripture that when you think you see something that hints at being taken to heaven then you automatically see rapture in a sort of rapture tunnel vision."""

Ok
The 144k have nothing whatsoever to do with the rapture of 1 thes 4.

Let me clarify....in a factual clear tone ( i am not yelling, mad or any of that....so sorry if it appears that way)
I have never, ever said the 144k in heaven is the rapture.

You literally made that up. Then framed me into some hyper rapture radical that can not discern the word due to an obsession with the rapture.

....off of a imagined perception.

Rapture is just a catching up.

Now how ironic that "catching up" is forbidden in the 144k , when it is obvious they got there somehow ,as did Jesus in acts 1, enoch, and the church in 1 thes 4..

" raptured, taken, ushered", any of them fits.

And nothing in the scriptures you quoted in the OP hints at rapture. I am trying to show you that the bit in Rev. 14 about the 144K is not a rapture verse. Take it or leave it.

God bless

 

[cv5]

And nothing in the scriptures you quoted in the OP hints at rapture. I am trying to show you that the bit in Rev. 14 about the 144K is not a rapture verse. Take it or leave it.

God bless

It is however a "type of firstfruits" verse. And a peculiar, identifiable group of the "first resurrection". Of which there are many.