What does John 3:16 mean?

[Magenta]

This is rich. First you promote the false doctrine of Annihilationism through John 3:16, and then you accuse me of being blinded -- BY IGNORANCE -- to the truth! Since Christians in general reject that nonsensical doctrine, why don't you stop promoting lies?

FROM THEOPEDIA
Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.

MARK 9 KJV: HELL (GEHENNA) IS ETERNAL TORMENT
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

These teachers you follow and promote do not even make a distinction between hell and the Lake of Fire. How ignorant and uninformed is that? Being that this thread is about John 3:16, perhaps you could also educate yourself on the word APOLLUMI. Strong's #622. Here, I'll help:

TO DESTROY UTTERLY.

Apollumi

 

[Runningman]

Let's take a look at something here to explain that people and or angels will be alive tormented in the lake of fire. Let's start in Isaiah 33: 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

That question is rhetorical because they are destroyed in the fire. No one dwells forever in it. Notice how we can't find any clear scripture about that, but finding verses about the wicked being destroyed is easy. That isn't an accident.

In Mark, here is a unclean spirit (evil angel) asking Jesus not to torment him. Remember angels are spirits and can be also tormented.

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. This is future in Luke. Why? We have not had the first resurrection yet and Abraham is still in the grave.

In your view, are "unclean spirits" the same thing as angels? Also, that verse doesn't say anything about everlasting torment.

Let's go to Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Doesn't mention everlasting torment.

Who rose from the grave? Jesus, and they did not believe his report. This guy doesn't even know he has been judged. If he looks around he would probably find his family burning along with him.

Maybe or maybe not.

 

[BroTan]

That question is rhetorical because they are destroyed in the fire. No one dwells forever in it. Notice how we can't find any clear scripture about that, but finding verses about the wicked being destroyed is easy. That isn't an accident.



In your view, are "unclean spirits" the same thing as angels? Also, that verse doesn't say anything about everlasting torment.



Doesn't mention everlasting torment.



Maybe or maybe not.

Angels are spirit being they don't die, Paul says in Hebrews 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So I see where the confusion is, you don't believe that angels live forever and those that will hit the second death will be change and live forever as well. This is so that the lake of fire will burn them forever. Let's go take a look and see if the angels can die. Let's go to Luke 20: 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 but they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

This punishment at one time was only for the angel that got kick out of heaven, but now, man has found his way right to it. Let's go into Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Let's skip down for time sake...

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

So if angels can't die and man can die, then man have to be change to live forever, to receive the same punishment that the angels will receive in the future.

 

[Runningman]

Angels are spirit being they don't die, Paul says in Hebrews 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So I see where the confusion is, you don't believe that angels live forever and those that will hit the second death will be change and live forever as well. This is so that the lake of fire will burn them forever. Let's go take a look and see if the angels can die. Let's go to Luke 20: 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 but they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

This punishment at one time was only for the angel that got kick out of heaven, but now, man has found his way right to it. Let's go into Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Let's skip down for time sake...

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

So if angels can't die and man can die, then man have to be change to live forever, to receive the same punishment that the angels will receive in the future.

Ah I see your misunderstanding now. Allow me to explain.

This only demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the resurrection on your part. Those who rise to the resurrection of life and stay with God receive eternal life. Those who do not go to heaven do not receive eternal life. The devil, his angels, and unbelievers don't get a resurrection where they are like angels in heaven and never die. There is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to damnation, they are not equal.

Jesus' proposition only makes sense if it is possible to die through not believing in Him. This means if you do not believe in Jesus then you die:
John 11:25-26 KJV
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you do not believe in Jesus then you perish (it means be killed or destroyed):
John 3:16 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The devil and his angels go to the lake of fire where they have a second death:
Matthew 25:41 KJV
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

1 Corinthians 15:26 KJV
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Hebrews 2:14 KJV
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BroTan]

Ah I see your misunderstanding now. Allow me to explain.

This only demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the resurrection on your part. Those who rise to the resurrection of life and stay with God receive eternal life. Those who do not go to heaven do not receive eternal life. The devil, his angels, and unbelievers don't get a resurrection where they are like angels in heaven and never die. There is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to damnation, they are not equal.

Jesus' proposition only makes sense if it is possible to die through not believing in Him. This means if you do not believe in Jesus then you die:
John 11:25-26 KJV
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you do not believe in Jesus then you perish (it means be killed or destroyed):
John 3:16 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The devil and his angels go to the lake of fire where they have a second death:
Matthew 25:41 KJV
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

1 Corinthians 15:26 KJV
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Hebrews 2:14 KJV
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No! You are adding more more then need be.

 

[Runningman]

No! You are adding more more then need be.

This is just 7 verses. Nothing particular excessive, just solid Bible. You just need to know the resurrection of damnation is not the same as the resurrection to life. You're trying to say that those who face the great white throne judgement of God are no different than those who receive their crown of glory and everlasting life through Christ. That's a false doctrine. Just pray about it.

 

[Lanolin]

John 3:16 is basically Gods promise to believers, which is why its such an important verse.

I dont know anything more to say or what to add, and if you keep reading that chapter more will be revealed but its probably the single best starting point for a new christian.

 

[Runningman]

Couldn't agree more with that previous post. Hopefully new Christians will come to this thread and find John 3:16 rightly divided.

 

[Evmur]

Though I wish it was otherwise, I don't believe everyone will be saved. Why not? When it comes down to it, I don't know.
I have questions that only the Lord can answer, though He hasn't. It is enough for me to know that He loves me unconditionally and will never leave me. And that I will dwell in His house forever. Shalom.

There is wisdom in that, the answer lies in the judgement ... God will judge with equity.

 

[Evmur]

The prerequisite for everlasting life is believing in Christ. By basic logic that means if you don’t believe in Christ you don’t have eternal life anywhere, at all, under any circumstances, no exceptions.

all will be resurrected, the living and the dead ... all will be judged and allotted their final destiny.

 

[Runningman]

all will be resurrected, the living and the dead ... all will be judged and allotted their final destiny.

Absolutely that's Biblical.

Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

To me this look like the everlasting punishment does not involve eternal life, meaning the everlasting punishment doesn't involve being awake forever while getting punished. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the everlasting punishment is death and there's a lot of scripture to support that.

 

[Evmur]

Absolutely that's Biblical.

Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

To me this look like the everlasting punishment does not involve eternal life, meaning the everlasting punishment doesn't involve being awake forever while getting punished. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the everlasting punishment is death and there's a lot of scripture to support that.

Jesus referred to folks being dead while they walked. Death is being separated from God. Remember Dives in the parable ... he was conscious.

 

[wintersrain]

You might have come to this thread thinking, “Oh this is an easy one.” But I ask you to resist the urge to not read past the title. What I am about to say requires a truth-seeker’s heart, humility, and a thirst for the rightly-divided Word of God.

One of the most well-known verses inside and outside of Christendom is also one of the least understood.

Jesus asks us in a number of places to drop our preconceived notions, to stop thinking too much, and just believe like a child does. That’s the only way to really understand the Word of God.

John 3:16 KJV
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

“…whosoever believeth in him should not perish…”
The physical bodies of all mortals perish, whether they are unrighteous or righteous. The unrighteousness soul and spirit will not live forever under any circumstances because they did not believe. They will cease to exist, they will perish, they will not be conscious and alive like the righteous are.

“…but have everlasting life…”
Therefore, the promise of never perishing applies to the soul and spirit of the person who believes in Christ. The person who believes in Christ will have a soul and spirit that has everlasting life. They will be living forever in eternal conscious communion with God.

Concisely: believe in Jesus and you’ll live forever. Don’t believe in Jesus and you won’t live forever. Full stop.

I think it is relative.
In the original Greek: https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm

If we read verse 16 while accepting what Jesus said about God choosing whom he would save it then makes sense. Only those God's grace gifts with faith=belief and Salvation are his.
Therefore, everyone whom God gifts is Saved by God's grace.

We do not choose God=Jesus. God=Jesus chooses us.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Verse:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

These are examples of lack of awareness and testify against those who think they can do something to lose Salvation or must work to remain in God's grace.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus referred to folks being dead while they walked. Death is being separated from God. Remember Dives in the parable ... he was conscious.

I agree that folks can be in a state of spiritual death. Where do people get the idea that death is being separated from God? I never really understood that.

 

[BroTan]

This is just 7 verses. Nothing particular excessive, just solid Bible. You just need to know the resurrection of damnation is not the same as the resurrection to life. You're trying to say that those who face the great white throne judgement of God are no different than those who receive their crown of glory and everlasting life through Christ. That's a false doctrine. Just pray about it.

But I prove it when showing you that the beast and false prophet are the ones people are seening in Isaiah 66: 20-24.
Let's go to Revelation again. Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. These two are the men that all flesh looked upon when they came up to worship before the Lord. This happened before the great white throne judgment.

This is a good example showing us what happen when God cast man into the lake of fire. They will burn forever. Also in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Runningman]

But I prove it when showing you that the beast and false prophet are the ones people are seening in Isaiah 66: 20-24.
Let's go to Revelation again. Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. These two are the men that all flesh looked upon when they came up to worship before the Lord. This happened before the great white throne judgment.

This is a good example showing us what happen when God cast man into the lake of fire. They will burn forever. Also in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But notice that the beast and false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire. Physically into the lake of fire before their resurrection, before their great white throne judgement, and before their second death. (Bonus: The lake of fire could possibly be a physical lake of fire on the earth after the day of the Lord)Furthermore, it doesn't say the word "forever" anywhere in there which is essentially what I am trying to get you to see. Revelation 21:8 is a good verse, notice that nothing you just quoted says forever.

There's the deception of eternal torment... it isn't clearly stated anywhere. It's amazing that more people aren't catching onto this.

Notice this passage in Revelation 20:

My notes inserted in brackets in red:
Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God[Resurection of the wicked unto damnation John 5:29]; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death[. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[The beast and false prophet are not in the book of life, that means they still needed to be resurrected from the lake of fire, judged, then put back in the fire to have their second death.]

 

[Blik]

It's amazing that no one would respond to this. Truly . . . amazing.

The thing is . . . some people [did] believe in Jesus, but they weren't granted Eternal Life. Why?

What was the condition, or fulcrum, to whether or not they sprouted or dried up and withered into death?

Matthew 13:20-21 NKJV - "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles."

Is it the same reason for why some people believed yet Christ never knew them?

Matthew 7:22-23 NKJV - "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

John 3:16 shows us the general Purpose of Christ, but it does not disclose the Work of Christ. It also gives us a glimpse of the Effect of Christ, such as Living Forever . . . but prior to human death, there are Holy Effects that produce Transformation.

John 3:16 and 17 are critical, Keystone passages of the entire Bible. But . . . this is not the Gospel in itself. To know the full Gospel, we must be able to describe the Work of Christ (the "fulcrum" as I noted above) and we must be able to outline the Holy Effect of Christ (that is evident prior to the reception of Eternal Life).

I cannot believe how much I LOVE the Mysterious Plan of God Almighty!

It amazes me that so many people read these verses without seeing, as you point out, that we need to believe "in Christ' (John 3:2:16) and "not stumble (Matthew 7:23).

If you believe in Christ, you believe all that Christ tells us. We believe we should repent, we believe we should love our enemies, we believe in all of Christ, not just that Christ can give us eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

It amazes me that so many people read these verses without seeing, as you point out, that we need to believe "in Christ' (John 3:2:16) and "not stumble (Matthew 7:23).

If you believe in Christ, you believe all that Christ tells us. We believe we should repent, we believe we should love our enemies, we believe in all of Christ, not just that Christ can give us eternal life.

Amen I agree.

I think some expansion would helpful on what Matthew 7:23 means exactly, though. Jesus is speaking to workers of iniquity which are people who violate or transgress the law. This verse only applies to people who violate the law.

I humbly submit some questions to you (or anyone who reads this) for consideration:
Which law(s) are these workers of iniquity transgressing?
Is the law(s) still in effect?
Who does the law apply to?
Which specific laws was Jesus referring to?

 

[BroTan]

But notice that the beast and false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire. Physically into the lake of fire before their resurrection, before their great white throne judgement, and before their second death. (Bonus: The lake of fire could possibly be a physical lake of fire on the earth after the day of the Lord)Furthermore, it doesn't say the word "forever" anywhere in there which is essentially what I am trying to get you to see. Revelation 21:8 is a good verse, notice that nothing you just quoted says forever.

There's the deception of eternal torment... it isn't clearly stated anywhere. It's amazing that more people aren't catching onto this.

Notice this passage in Revelation 20:

My notes inserted in brackets in red:
Revelation 20:11-15 KJV
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God[Resurection of the wicked unto damnation John 5:29]; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death[. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[The beast and false prophet are not in the book of life, that means they still needed to be resurrected from the lake of fire, judged, then put back in the fire to have their second death.]

No, now this is the part where you have to put everything I post together with understanding, because the beast and the false prophets have already been judge, thats why they already in the fire. The beast and false prophet beat Satan in the fire, and the lake of fire was created for angels in the beginning. Pay attention to what's being said here in Revelation 20: 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So there's your ever and ever right there. The judgement is already made, no need to come out of the fire just to go back in.

 

[Runningman]

No, now this is the part where you have to put everything I post together with understanding, because the beast and the false prophets have already been judge, thats why they already in the fire. The beast and false prophet beat Satan in the fire, and the lake of fire was created for angels in the beginning. Pay attention to what's being said here in Revelation 20: 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So there's your ever and ever right there. The judgement is already made, no need to come out of the fire just to go back in.

So three persons are tormented day and night forever, all three which don't get a judgement or second death like everyone else according to you. I'm going to have to disagree with that for a number of reasons because it creates contradictions. There is also reasonable doubt that "forever and ever" is always literally forever and I can prove that.

There is precedent for forever not meaning forever. Revelation uses what is known as apocalyptic language sometimes and it isn't always literal.

Edom is not burning forever:
Isaiah 34:9-10 KJV
9And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not on fire forever:
Jude 1:7
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So how do we know the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented forever when there isn't broad scriptural support for that? There's more support for the wicked perishing, being destroyed, or put to death.