Alcohol - a world wide phenomena

[Magenta]

Now why don't you include.........except the 65 listed, et al ?

I do not understand your question. You said you were unaware
of any Scripture verses of a certain nature, and I provided some.

If you want to follow the Bible, you must first know what it says.

 

[peldom10]

I do not understand your question. You said you were unaware
of any Scripture verses of a certain nature, and I provided some.

If you want to follow the Bible, you must first know what it says.[/QUOTE]

Ok...that is your inspiration...I conclude.
I don't drink alcohol and therefore need not that which allows...if any.

 

[Magenta]

Ok...that is your inspiration...I conclude.
I don't drink alcohol and therefore need not that which allows...if any.

Yes I find inspiration in the Bible, and then some. I don't drink either.

Listen, if you want to pretend the Bible does nothing but condemn alcohol
use in every way, have at it. Just don't expect me to agree with you when
your attitude, and that of others, clashes with what the Bible ACTUALLY says.

 

[JStates]

Yes, I saw that. If it's the one from Leviticus, I mentioned that same verse in my first post. As you noted in YOUR post, it's highly situational. One is not to drink in God's house. It's not a blanket condemnation of all alcohol consumption.

There is NO blanket condemnation of all alcohol consumption in the Scriptures. Instead, we have many principles and warnings governing the responsible usage of alcohol.

If alcohol consumption were forbidden, the Scriptures would clearly lay it out. "No alcohol." Simple, direct, unambiguous. We don't have this.

Let me go one further as to WHY the Scriptures don't outright forbid alcohol but instead give principles regarding its use. Personal opinion here, but I think this is a very rational view.

The Bible preexisted many modern drugs and substances, both medicinal and recreational. And while there were narcotics in use probably during the 1400 years span that the Bible was written, many of them were from far-flung areas of the world.

Alcohol in the Bible serves as a PATTERN or MODEL for the use/consumption of ANY potentially mind altering or addictive drug.

Opiates, marijuana, heck, even aspirin or casual drugs like caffeine. Biblical principle: make sure your usage of these things is responsible such that it does not become a habit that CONTROLS YOU and leaves you spiritually vulnerable. Make sure your usage of whatever substance is not damaging the temple of the Holy Spirit, your body.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I have listed some of these multiple times but you pretend they don't exist.

Again you make assumptions and accusations of and at me. I don't ignore any of them and agree with all of them, and I even utilized the very website you copied them from originally in my research, which you ignored and did not read (yes or no?).

The issue is not with the texts you provided, but with your assumptions about what they say.

Again, the issue is not with the words, but with the definitions you place upon those words without scriptural justification.

As for instance, when you read "wine" in OT or NT, you place into the definition of that word something which may or may not exist there depending upon the context of the verse and context. In other words, when you read "wine" you automatically place an alcoholic definition into it, whether warranted by context or not. I don't do that, and with good reason as the research reveals. "Wine" in scripture has several definitions, with two general 'kinds' depending on context.

Please do no think me cruel, as I am attempting to point out a logical inconsistency that also violates scriptural context at times.

Why not simply look at the texts with me in their contexts?

I have posted on example of God directly forbidding the drinking of alcohol in Leviticus 10:9. Would you address the questions I have about the text in context?

I have other places where alcohol is forbidden, but one thing at a time, which is better than throwing out 70+ verses and not considering each one individually.

If after we look at the Leviticus text, I would be glad to look at any single one text you would like in context with you and engage in study of it with you, and after we look at another text in context which forbids alcohol, and back and forth between us, irrespective of others who do not want to study the bible, but simply want to make anecdotal commentary, and waste precious bible study time with, Nuh-uh, Yah-huh, Nuh-uh, Yah-huh, right into pointless
ad hominem and trying to get bible study to shut down.

I do not think that what I have proposed is unfair or biased.

 

[JStates]

Don't know of any......post them if you wish. The Bible speaks for itself. Many just rejects it's teaching.

I would not post any if I knew them for I wish not to encourage alcohol drinking.

I will say that it's probably best to never touch alcohol. As I mentioned, I grew up in a Christian home where there generally was no alcohol, and I can say now that I have had alcoholic beverages that I wasn't really missing much.

Most alcoholic beverages taste nasty and are expensive.

And this is one of those things where the "designer temptation" factor comes into play. It does seem that some people have a natural liking for alcohol and love it from the very first sip. This can make responsible consumption... more challenging for some people than for others. I think some call this a predisposition towards alcoholism.

It likely works this way for other things too. I really like my caffeine, for example. I REAALLY REALLY really really like my caffeine!! So I try to completely go without it every few days just to make sure I'm not building an addiction. Alcohol, meh. But that's just my personal taste.

 

[JStates]

Again you make assumptions and accusations of and at me. I don't ignore any of them and agree with all of them, and I even utilized the very website you copied them from originally in my research, which you ignored and did not read (yes or no?).

The issue is not with the texts you provided, but with your assumptions about what they say.

Again, the issue is not with the words, but with the definitions you place upon those words without scriptural justification.

As for instance, when you read "wine" in OT or NT, you place into the definition of that word something which may or may not exist there depending upon the context of the verse and context. In other words, when you read "wine" you automatically place an alcoholic definition into it, whether warranted by context or not. I don't do that, and with good reason as the research reveals. "Wine" in scripture has several definitions, with two general 'kinds' depending on context.

Please do no think me cruel, as I am attempting to point out a logical inconsistency that also violates scriptural context at times.

Why not simply look at the texts with me in their contexts?

I have posted on example of God directly forbidding the drinking of alcohol in Leviticus 10:9. Would you address the questions I have about the text in context?

I have other places where alcohol is forbidden, but one thing at a time, which is better than throwing out 70+ verses and not considering each one individually.

If after we look at the Leviticus text, I would be glad to look at any single one text you would like in context with you and engage in study of it with you, and after we look at another text in context which forbids alcohol, and back and forth between us, irrespective of others who do not want to study the bible, but simply want to make anecdotal commentary, and waste precious bible study time with, Nuh-uh, Yah-huh, Nuh-uh, Yah-huh, right into pointless
ad hominem and trying to get bible study to shut down.

I do not think that what I have proposed is unfair or biased.

Alright, now that I can support, given that there are so many verses about this subject.

My big question from reading Leviticus 10:9 is whether all alcohol should be forbidden in the modern church - including communion - or whether this was a highly specific injunction for the Levites, and the principle is more to be very careful in how worship is approached.

I ask this because I know that there are churches who (in good conscience before God I should add) DO use real wine for communion. Note the amounts used are negligible and would probably not even constitute a standard alcoholic drink.

Personally I would not use real wine for communion and I have not attended churches which do so, but I know good Christians who do. And some Christians actually say that the alcohol is an important part of the communion ("It has to be REAL wine!") - I'm a little skeptical about that one, but okay. I'm not going to judge or condemn others for doing this though I would not personally.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts (Biblically supported) about this.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Here is one such place. There are others as well.

1 Timothy 5:23-25 NKJV
No longer drink only water but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

You're assuming alcohol. Context in 1-2 Tim, etc preclude such. I specifically detail this in the research. If people fear utilizing Internet Archive, which has its own antivirus policies and government level backing, please feel free to combine it with virustotal website, which utilizes over 40 antivirus and malware checking software to double check the clean file (as a Christian sworn to the Truth, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, my Yea, is Yea that the file is clean).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

My big question from reading Leviticus 10:9 is whether all alcohol should be forbidden in the modern church - including communion - or whether this was a highly specific injunction for the Levites, and the principle is more to be very careful in how worship is approached.

I don't, and we (you, I and or others) do not have to assume anything. I, we, should only accept what is written in the bible.

Let's just start with Lev 10.

10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.

2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.

5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.

6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the Lord hath kindled.

7 And ye shall not go out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: for the anointing oil of the Lord is upon you. And they did according to the word of Moses.

8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,

9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

So, looking at the context, would you agree with me that God forbid the drinking of alcohol by those of the Aaronic priesthood and descendancy while they were in service to the Tabernacle/Sanctuary/Temple permanently?

 

[JStates]

So, looking at the context, would you agree with me that God forbid the drinking of alcohol by those of the Aaronic priesthood and descendancy while they were in service to the Tabernacle/Sanctuary/Temple permanently?

Yes, I agree that conclusion is correct from the Scripture passage.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Yes, I agree that conclusion is correct from the Scripture passage.

Ok, would you agree, by the context, that the reason that Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire was because their mental capacity was impaired by having drank alcohol before going into the service of the Tabernacle, which brought God's wrath unto their death by confusing the holy and the unholy, clean and unclean, and brought about God's proclamation to Aaron and his other sons about not drinking alcohol in God's service of the Tabernacle lest they die similarly?

 

[JStates]

Ok, would you agree, by the context, that the reason that Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire was because their mental capacity was impaired by having drank alcohol before going into the service of the Tabernacle, which brought God's wrath unto their death by confusing the holy and the unholy, clean and unclean, and brought about God's proclamation to Aaron and his other sons about not drinking alcohol in God's service of the Tabernacle lest they die similarly?

It's a possibility given their sinful habits, but I don't think we can be dogmatic about it either way.

 

[Magenta]

You are making an assumption, and in an accusatory manner. There are better ways to study with someone.

Your question, asked accusatorially, assumes your position to start with. I (we) do not acknowledge your position (starting) as correct. I (we) therefore reject the accusatory question as based in error.

Let's go to the places which specifically forbid alcohol. I just listed one.

I wasn't even talking to you. Then you claim you know of NO Bible verses which permit, recommend, or command alcohol use, so I posted some, and again you criticize me and act as if some do not accept what the Bible says while YOU tell us you do not even KNOW what the Bible says but want to put yourself forth as our teacher. These are not false accusations, it is the truth of what you have said and done here.

I, we, should only accept what is written in the bible.

If only you could practice what you preach!

 

[Magenta]

You are making an assumption

It was a question. Can you not tell the difference? No? It also appears that you cannot see plainly what is put under the noses of people who then claim they know of no such thing. So I was assuming nothing. They plainly display their willful blindness.

 

[Magenta]

I (we) do not acknowledge your position (starting) as correct.

Right. Because you reject what Scripture says. Enough said.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This thread is about "Alcohol - a world wide phenomena" from a Bible perspective.

Does the Bible talk about alcohol?

What does the Bible say about alcohol if it does talk about it?

Does the Bible give any warnings or prohibitions abouto it's use or improper use?

Does the Bible say anything about alcohol being a serious health problem in the last days or end times?

Did anyone drink alcohol in the Bible, and if so, who and for what reason?

If there are examples in the Bible of persons drinking alcohol, are they examples of good or evil?

If alcohol is mentioned in the Bible, what words are used for it, and what words are associated and/or surrounding it/them?

I haven't read through any of the thread, so I don't expect you to repeat yourself, but if you haven't been asked this question, what is your alcohol consumption like? Are you having a struggle and looking for answers to help with an alcohol problem? As of last December, I've got ten years. This fellah can't drink that stuff. From incredible experience, I can say that this drug is unpredictable and unique to all people. It took many years for me to realize that alcohol doesn't affect everyone else the way it affected me. I used to be extremely concerned with anyone that drank alcohol, but many years later came to realize that some people loved to drink it and that they never even got a buzz out of it. That just blew my mind. Why spend money on nasty tasting, rotten foods that have fermented? I never drank it because I liked the taste. I drank it because I was miserable.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

It's a possibility given their sinful habits, but I don't think we can be dogmatic about it either way.

Well, I don't want to press you, but as I plainly read the text, I ask myself the question, Why does God suddenly mention the forbiddance of alcohol to Aaron and priests in the sanctuary service? Is God random in what God does, or is it that the context reveals why God said and did what God did, and are there any other events like it to confirm? In my questions to God, The Holy Spirit leads me to other texts, like Revelation 17.

However, as I said I will not press the matter, because, ultimately I am attempting to answer your larger question.

In the sanctuary, on the sides of the north (right hand entering side), was the Table of the Lord, the table of the bread of the presence, the table of shewbread, etc.

On the "pure" table were cups and bowls.

Do you agree with that assessment without me citing the references, or would you like me to cite those references?

If you do agree without me having to cite the references, do you know what was to be in those cups continually?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

what is your alcohol consumption like

No worries (I don't expect persons who were no present from the start to read all the backlog, but as a courtesy, please read the first page of responses and consider the linked research therein).

My alcohol consumption as a converted Christian is 0 (zero). Once I became a Christian and studied the matter out thoroughly, I no longer drink the toxic poison. In my past before my conversion I drank several things classified as alcohol, alcoholic wine, beer, 'liquor', etc.

I don't mind questions.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Right. Because you reject what Scripture says. Enough said.

That statement assumes your position, without deep consideration of my stated and written position.

If you feel the need to assume I reject scripture simply because I disagree with your position, that is your prerogative, but it is not mine. I also cannot continue to say as I have said, I accept all scripture and agree with it, but to keep repeating this is a poor management of my time.

I used to be Catholic, and so used to think in your mindset (I am not saying you are or are not Catholic) on those scriptures, to justify Catholicism's faith and practice, but once I was free of that system of error, I was able to simply read the scriptures for what they plainly say without the lens of a priori or others ideology.

My offer to you is still open and available to study together as I have already suggested, and will continue to be until time ends for us, which is soon.

 

[Chester]

The question was not about drunkenness by about consumption.

True, but the Bible speaks about drunkenness and gives little guidance on amount of consumption.