Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Phoneman-777]

First of all, in order for a person to experience "eternal torment" one would have to be existing. This is why it is important to understand the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It states that both men died, yet their spirits were in Hades, conscious and aware. The rich man could see and speak with Abraham's spirit. And the rich man could experience the torment of the flame.The state of death is conscious existence, not nonexistence.

Look, if no murderer hath eternal life, how can he have eternal suffering?

Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the soul exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. It can no longer continue to exist after these two separate any more than the joint can exist when the bones and marrow separate, says Hebrews 4:12 KJV.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do these two persons in your imagination of Luke 16 have physical bodies able to experience pain and peace (comfort)?

First of all its not my imagination. This is information is contained right in the story itself. Those in the parable are spirits. Their physical bodies have already died.

"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. in Hades, where he (his spirit) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side."

So the scripture states that Lazarus died and the angels came a took "his spirit" to Abraham's side. Since the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, they would all have to be in Hades, because that's where the rich man was. Once side was a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Look, if no murderer hath eternal life, how can he have eternal suffering?

Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly says the soul exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. It can no longer continue to exist after these two separate any more than the joint can exist when the bones and marrow separate, says Hebrews 4:12 KJV.

While it is true that no murderer has eternal life, that does not mean that he ceases to exist. You just don't understand the meaning of death, which is conscious awareness in separation from God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Has to be b/c things are happening that the Bible says cannot happen in real experience.
Jesus said the dead are unconscious in graves, not in conscious torment. Peter also said twice the wicked are "reserved" for future punishment, which means they ain't being punished now.
"Moses and the Prophets" was a well known symbol for "Word of God" to the Jews; "Abraham" will not "wake or be raised out of (his) sleep" until the resurrection, according to prophet Job, and "Lazarus" was called such so that when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead and the Jews plotted to kill he and Jesus, the people would remember Jesus' words that if they refused to believe the Word, they wouldn't believe though one rose from the dead.

Jesus never used real names in his parables. Parables use symbolism to represent the literal, wheat = the righteous, Tares = the wicked, etc. The rich man and Lazarus uses the real names of Abraham, Moses and Lazarus. It also uses the name of the real location of Hades/Sheol.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Not a one. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with "eternal fire"? Is Jerusalem still burning with fire "that shall not be quenched"? And, "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever" can either refer to "eternity" or "until it is done": Greek "aionios" - "duration: either undefined but NOT ENDLESS or undefined because endless."

FYI, there are many places in Scripture where "forever" is used in conjunction with events that have ALREADY ENDED, and is why scholars agree that when "forever" is applied to the affairs of God, it means "eternity", but when applied to the affairs of men, it usually means "all the days of life", such as in the case of the slave who chose to remain his master's slave "forever" which is "all the days of life". The smoke of the wicked will rise until there's nothing left but ash, which the righteous will tread down, will we not?

The spirits of those who were physically killed at Sodom and Gomorrah, their spirits are in torment in Sheol/Hades till this very day, as well as the rich man and anyone else who has died in their sins. Hades is receiving the spirits of the wicked 24/7

 

[posthuman]

I'd rather be monistic and stick to Sola Scriptura

scripture is absolutely not compatible with a monistic view of the nature of mankind.

what you are saying is you would rather call God a liar than give up your private interpretation.

this interests me: why is the idea of the cessation of your existence so important to you?
are you depressed, tele-person?
can you use PM's? if you want to talk real about your life, i am not your enemy. i'll start a PM with you if you're not able to.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Literal interpretation only causes problems for unbelievers.

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

EXACT same Greek word! You don't believe in eternal life?

Yes, same word, differing populations, one with no life, the other with life. One eternally dead, the other eternally living. The argument is not the word itself so much, as it simply means 'age-enduring'. The eternal punishment is not eternal torture. That is where you err and assume your a priori. The punishment is death, not eternal torment. There is limited torment unto the finality of death eternal.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Jesus never used real names in his parables

Untrue. He did. You are also making a logical fallacy by assuming that Luke 16 is not a parable by using such names, and standing upon that to make your point. You argued in a circle.

If indeed it is shown to be a parable, your premise that Jesus never used "real names" in a parable is proven false, thus breaking the circular fallacy.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

First of all its not my imagination. This is information is contained right in the story itself. Those in the parable are spirits. Their physical bodies have already died.

"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. in Hades, where he (his spirit) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side."

So the scripture states that Lazarus died and the angels came a took "his spirit" to Abraham's side. Since the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, they would all have to be in Hades, because that's where the rich man was. Once side was a place of comfort and the other a place of torment in flame.

Why then does the parable describe physical body aspects in those body less places (as you imagine)?

Eyes
Tongue
Finger
Bosom
Flames
Oxygen
Comforted
Voice box
Ears
Etc?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

The rich man and Lazarus uses the real names of Abraham, Moses and Lazarus. It also uses the name of the real location of Hades/Sheol

Yes, and names have spiritual meaning. What does Abraham mean? What does Lazarus mean? What does Moses mean? Even places with names have meaning. For instance what does Jerusalem mean?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why then does the parable describe physical body aspects in those body less places (as you imagine)?

Eyes
Tongue
Finger
Bosom
Flames
Oxygen
Comforted
Voice box
Ears
Etc?

Hello again, CSM,

First of all, remember we are being told an event that took place between spirits, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Nevertheless, it is simply a matter of deduction. Since we know that when the human body dies, it decomposes, i.e. it returns to the dust of the earth, then it could not be speaking of their bodies. We could ask your same questions in regards to the witch of Edor, who at Saul's request called up the prophet Samuel. She was able to identify him in his spirit.

============================================
“Whom shall I bring up for you?” the woman asked.
“Bring up Samuel,” he replied.
But when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out in a loud voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
“Do not be afraid,” the king replied. “What do you see?”
“I see a god coming up out of the earth,” the woman answered.
“What does he look like?” asked Saul.
“An old man is coming up,” she replied. “And he is wearing a robe.”
So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed facedown in reverence.
Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
================================================

Samuel was coming up from the comfort side of Hades, the same place that Abraham and Lazarus and rest of the OT saints were.

Obviously, the spirit retains the characteristics of the body in an incorporeal state.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Untrue. He did. You are also making a logical fallacy by assuming that Luke 16 is not a parable by using such names, and standing upon that to make your point. You argued in a circle.

If indeed it is shown to be a parable, your premise that Jesus never used "real names" in a parable is proven false, thus breaking the circular fallacy.

He did? Please give me an example of where Jesus used real names in a parable.

You're speaking in circles. Instead of receiving the story of the rich man and Lazarus in the way the Lord meant, you turn it into a parable.

 

[Duckybill]

No. You gave me alot of Scriptures how I will be burnt in hell. You did not explain how hell can burn hell. I get it, I will burn in hell but tell me more details of this single hell. Your reasoning is like the famous "or else" that mother used to say. Conform hell to this verse Rev 20:14 as all verses must conform, no?

If you don't believe Jesus you surely won't believe me.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

Oh, you say you believe what Jesus said?

Jesus told Paul we put on our immortal body at the resurrection, not at death.
Jesus told Job and Solomon the dead don't know anything.
Jesus told Solomon the dead can't return to warn anybody about anything.
Jesus told Peter the dead wicked are reserved for punishment at the day of Judgement "to be" punished.
Jesus told David the dead go down into silence.
Jesus told David and Solomon the dead have no memory.
Jesus told all the people not just the soul, but the body and soul are cast into hell "at the end of the world".

Which means Jesus' words in Luke 16 are a parable, not literal.

Why does the Eternal Torment crowd care nothing about Scriptural harmony?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Duckybill]

I can see how the Eternal Torment crowd might think I'm "rewriting" Scripture when I dig up verses they've chosen to bury and forget ever existed.

Satan LOVES it when people don't believe in the eternal Hell fire that Jesus clearly taught! He wants your company in Hell, "forever and ever"!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

I've cross examined you guys so many times, the judge is about to hold me in contempt of court for delaying "Administration of Justice".

And you totally ignore and TWIST what Jesus said!

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[Duckybill]

Perhaps you're able to see only ridiculously large font
since you use it constantly..so here you are:​

The "eternal fire" of Sodom and Gomorrah is out.

The Jerusalem "fire that shalt not be quenched" burned itself out long ago.

"Forever" for Job was less than three days.

"Forever" for Samuel was until he died.

"Forever" for the devoted slave was until he died.

Why are you trying to overrule Jesus with OT?

 

[Duckybill]

Yes, same word, differing populations, one with no life, the other with life. One eternally dead, the other eternally living. The argument is not the word itself so much, as it simply means 'age-enduring'. The eternal punishment is not eternal torture. That is where you err and assume your a priori. The punishment is death, not eternal torment. There is limited torment unto the finality of death eternal.

No Scripture of course! Why don't you just believe what Jesus clearly said?

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

He did? Please give me an example of where Jesus used real names in a parable.

Num 23:7: "And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel."

All scripture is given by inspiration of who?

From whom does the Holy Ghost receive, and speak?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Hello again, CSM,

First of all, remember we are being told an event that took place between spirits, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Nevertheless, it is simply a matter of deduction. Since we know that when the human body dies, it decomposes, i.e. it returns to the dust of the earth, then it could not be speaking of their bodies. We could ask your same questions in regards to the witch of Edor, who at Saul's request called up the prophet Samuel. She was able to identify him in his spirit.

One circle to another.

I asked about Luke 16 in context and, physical body parts, and you, like a WTS/JW, then go to a completely different text.

Which do you want to look at? The parable of Luke 16 in the NT? Or the deception of Satan masquerading as deceased Samuel in the OT?