Did Paul sin regularly?

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Did Paul sin uncontrollably and willfully on a regular basis?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 12 75.0%

  • Total voters
    16

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#81
Saul was the type that resorted to hunting people down and killing them over disagreements. Let that sink if for a second.
I get it, and this is exactly what he was referencing when he stated that he [was] the worst of worst sinners. He no longer participated in those sins, but was Transformed within weeks; going from the Damascus Road to preaching. He changed. Those sins he did not commit anymore. He was Transformed in thinking that led to being Transformed in behavior.
 
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RichMan

Guest
#82
The poll is missing the correct answer.
Only Paul and God knows.

Not for us to really judge.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#83
I get it, and this is exactly what he was referencing when he stated that he [was] the worst of worst sinners. He no longer participated in those sins, but was Transformed within weeks; going from the Damascus Road to preaching. He changed. Those sins he did not commit anymore. He was Transformed in thinking that led to being Transformed in behavior.
Post-conversion Paul still wasn't perfect. From my perspective, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 is a story about Paul's weakness and limitations to keep him humble. Now, I do think he was pretty close to perfect. This "thorn in the flesh", though Paul doesn't just admit what it is, from all I can see, is some regular sin in his life.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#84
The poll is missing the correct answer.
Only Paul and God knows.

Not for us to really judge.
Thanks for your opinion RichMan. I absolutely agree and I am not attempting to judge Paul to heaven or hell by discussing this. So as far as I can tell I am not in the wrong here and this poll asks a valid question. I am just discussing what Paul's lifestyle was really like as a Christian.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#85
Post-conversion Paul still wasn't perfect. From my perspective, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 is a story about Paul's weakness and limitations to keep him humble. Now, I do think he was pretty close to perfect. This "thorn in the flesh", though Paul doesn't just admit what it is, from all I can see, is some regular sin in his life.
I hear what you're saying. I see the Thorn in the Flesh as some kind of physical pain; some kind of physiological problem. Why? Because of the object of that passage, which is Grace. "We" tend to focus on what Paul's problem was, but we really should be focusing in on what that Grace, or form of Grace, was being conveyed to Him.

The reason for why I tend to go down this path is because I am in constant pain, 24/7. I struggle both physically, but I also struggle with emotional pain over how angry, lost, and confused "christians" are. But to the former, even with all of our modern-day medicines and pain-killers, I struggle with pain and am deeply concerned about my future now that I'm in my mid-fifties. My outlook doesn't look good. So what if this Grace is Circumcision of the Heart?

Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

There is no greater Grace than to be redeemed of the Curse that separates us from God.

Colossians 2:11-13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

[If] what I am suggesting is True, then our physical pain is pointing to us that which the Lord views as something as Precious.

Psalm 116:15 KJV - "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints."

So if these things are True, and if Paul is in physical discomfort (which could have certainly been his eyesight), then to have received the Gracious, Circumcision of Christ is ALL that he needs. For even when he dies, this will be to his gain.

I don't know about you, but I have received this Grace. I have received the Circumcision of Christ and am free of the Law of Sin and Death that compels me to do the will of the Devil. I don't know about you, but I cannot WAIT to die and go to Heaven. Then again, I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, which was Pure Peace and Love, so I KNOW with full assurance of what I am headed into.

I am ready to die . . . right now. I would never take my life, but nothing would make me happier than to get out of this physical world of decay and corruption and live in Pure Peace and Love. I've already tasted it.
 
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RichMan

Guest
#86
Thanks for your opinion RichMan. I absolutely agree and I am not attempting to judge Paul to heaven or hell by discussing this. So as far as I can tell I am not in the wrong here and this poll asks a valid question. I am just discussing what Paul's lifestyle was really like as a Christian.
I under stand. Not judging your intent.
I just do not believe I could make a statement on his lifestyle because I was not with him.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#87
I under stand. Not judging your intent.
I just do not believe I could make a statement on his lifestyle because I was not with him.
I think that we [can] make this judgement, because Paul tells us of who [was] with him. Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 1:4-6 NIV - "For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit."

18 times we read of Paul referencing that his readers ought to model themselves after him, and if they did, they would be modeling themselves after Christ, for Paul modeled Christ.

Paul was [not] out of control. If Paul sinned uncontrollably, then I wouldn't pay any attention to his written Word . . . at . . . all.
 
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RichMan

Guest
#88
I think that we [can] make this judgement, because Paul tells us of who [was] with him. Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 1:4-6 NIV - "For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit."

18 times we read of Paul referencing that his readers ought to model themselves after him, and if they did, they would be modeling themselves after Christ, for Paul modeled Christ.

Paul was [not] out of control. If Paul sinned uncontrollably, then I wouldn't pay any attention to his written Word . . . at . . . all.
If you will notice, I was speaking of me, not of others.
Not condemning or judging you or others that believe you can know.
I will say this, I do not believe Paul sinned uncontrollably, but by his own words he did sin.
I will also say this, I believe he saw himself a greater sinner than God did.
Just my opinion.:)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#89
If you will notice, I was speaking of me, not of others.
Not condemning or judging you or others that believe you can know.
I will say this, I do not believe Paul sinned uncontrollably, but by his own words he did sin.
I will also say this, I believe he saw himself a greater sinner than God did.
Just my opinion.:)
Okie doke.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#90
I think that you will agree: Unless a person has undergone Spiritual Transformation, they can only interpret Romans 7 in one way . . . especially as they look at the condition of their own life, which is utterly sinful, and then have only but one choice which is to conclude that Paul, too, must have been utterly sinful.

I used to attend church intoxicated, even being a member of the worship team . . . absolutely under the influence of intoxicants. I used to frequent strip clubs. I used to curse like a sailor. I had a hardcore sex and porn addiction. I had only one option but to conclude that Paul was just like me . . . unable to control himself to the degree where he would say, "The things I want to do, I cannot. The things I don't want to do, I do." I look at that passage and I said, "Yes! That's me! That is absolutely me!" And then I sustained a Powerful Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and my life began to change outside of my own choice, decision, and control. Now, I say, "The things I used to do, I no longer do. The things I always wanted to do, I now do."

We cannot look upon the condition of our own lives to determine the meaning of Scripture. Instead, we need to consider Scripture to determine the condition of our lives . . . our Spiritual Life.

John 8:44 NLT - "For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies."

If we are to conclude that Paul was out of control, then passages like the above would conclude that Satan was still Paul's Spiritual Father, and that is impossible.
Before you were as Saul in RO.7. under conviction but not saved, after you became like Paul in Ro.8.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#91
Before you were as Saul in RO.7. under conviction but not saved, after you became like Paul in Ro.8.
I would say that I am in the same position that Paul was in when he wrote Roman's 7. Just as I was reflecting upon my past, so was Paul reflecting upon his past as he wrote Romans 7. There is no other rational option. I realize that others will conclude that I am wrong . . . I'm ok with that and I get it. I understand. I'm happy to simply agree to disagree with those who say that I'm wrong.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#92
Thanks, perhaps willful was not a good word but I think uncontrollable is appropriate. From what I can see in Romans 7, correct me if I am wrong, but that sin runs rampant in Paul's body acting independently of Paul's free will and sinning upon its own cognizance and volition?
I do not see it that way. I think that uncontrollable could perhaps be used, but do not think the body acts "independently" of the mind (in part where free will dwells). If the body is incontrollable and we can do nothing about it, then we can blame God for having us born in this state: thus our sin is His fault.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#93
I do not see it that way. I think that uncontrollable could perhaps be used, but do not think the body acts "independently" of the mind (in part where free will dwells). If the body is incontrollable and we can do nothing about it, then we can blame God for having us born in this state: thus our sin is His fault.
To me it sounds like Paul isn’t taking responsibility for his sin. If his sin isn’t a deliberate and conscious choice then it’s not his fault. If he just doesn’t have self-control then he could have just said that, but he didn’t.

Paul is a smart guy, that’s evident. I think Paul is trying to say that sin lives in his body of flesh but that his spirit is composed of the inward man who delights in the law of God. His body apparently obeys sin but his spirit obeys God’s laws.

Does this look like sin has a mind of its own in the passage below?

Romans 7:15-20 KJV
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.