The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

My friend never forget the fact that the Church is no longer on the earth during the tribulation.

There is NO evidence for a pretrib resurrection/rapture. Yes, the CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL be on earth during the Tribulation.

In fact, Rev 22:16 tells us WHY and to WHOM the book was written:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Taking the Church out of the time and place of the 70th week of Daniel resolves all issues, identities and supposed paradoxes.

Yet, creates a complete contradiction in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the unsaved. Acts 24:15
The Bible teaches that WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur: "when He comes", which is 2nd Advent. 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches plainly that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:4,5
The Bible teaches plainly that the "gathering up" of living believers for the resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3

These are facts. Any supposed believer resurrection BEFORE the Trib contradicts all these fact.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

My friend never forget the fact that the Church is no longer on the earth during the tribulation. The Jews and Gentiles that remain suffer through the 70th week judgments. The sheep and goats aka nations judgments pertain not at all to the Church in any fashion whatsoever. You must understand that no judgment whatsoever comes upon the faithful Church. To the extent that they are not even around when it happens.

Taking the Church out of the time and place of the 70th week of Daniel resolves all issues, identities and supposed paradoxes.

Look I hate to sound like a Debbie Downer or a fear mongerer, but my friend, never forget the fact that the saints are delivered into the hands of the Beast, the Beast shall make war with them and overcomes them for a time, times and half a time, even though you’ve heard it all the time that "Jesus would not beat up his bride before the wedding".

And speaking of judgement, even if you’re bailed out, you still have to go to the court for trial when the “judgement day” comes.

 

[cv5]

There is NO evidence for a pretrib resurrection/rapture. Yes, the CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL be on earth during the Tribulation.

In fact, Rev 22:16 tells us WHY and to WHOM the book was written:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”


Yet, creates a complete contradiction in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the unsaved. Acts 24:15
The Bible teaches that WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur: "when He comes", which is 2nd Advent. 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches plainly that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:4,5
The Bible teaches plainly that the "gathering up" of living believers for the resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3

These are facts. Any supposed believer resurrection BEFORE the Trib contradicts all these fact.

That doesn't make any sense. The problem is my friend you just don't get it. If you do get it then please tell me who are the 24 Elders noted in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.

Now is your big chance to prove to everyone that you do in fact understand your Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO evidence for a pretrib resurrection/rapture. Yes, the CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL be on earth during the Tribulation.

In fact, Rev 22:16 tells us WHY and to WHOM the book was written:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Yet, creates a complete contradiction in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the unsaved. Acts 24:15
The Bible teaches that WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur: "when He comes", which is 2nd Advent. 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches plainly that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:4,5
The Bible teaches plainly that the "gathering up" of living believers for the resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3

These are facts. Any supposed believer resurrection BEFORE the Trib contradicts all these fact.

That doesn't make any sense.

Huh? What I posted is perfectly clear. Are you eyes and ears open or not?

I invite you to look up each citation that I included with each of the 5 facts and see for yourself if my facts align with the Bible or not.

The problem is my friend you just don't get it. If you do get it then please tell me who are the 24 Elders noted in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.

I don't get your question. What do the 24 elders have to do with WHEN the singular resurrection will occur?

Now is your big chance to prove to everyone that you do in fact understand your Bible.

Rather, now is YOUR chance to prove that you know anything.

I've given 5 facts, all backed up with Scripture. You are invited to examine every citation listed with the 5 facts and prove me wrong if I am. You have claimed that my 5 facts don't make any sense. Can you prove that? Can you prove that my facts aren't facts?

My facts are clearly stated. I've given verses for every fact.

Please don't blow YOUR big chance.

 

[cv5]

Look I hate to sound like a Debbie Downer or a fear mongerer, but my friend, never forget the fact that the saints are delivered into the hands of the Beast, the Beast shall make war with them and overcomes them for a time, times and half a time, even though you’ve heard it all the time that "Jesus would not beat up his bride before the wedding".

Nope. You show me the term Church anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18. You show me the Church preaching anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18.

Compare and contrast this glaring omission with the number of times the term "Church" is used from Matt thru Jude.....77 times. And then 7 more times in the 7 epistles to the Churches in Revelation 2&3. And that's all.....that's it.....it's over.

Look people this isn't rocket science. Simple deductive reasoning will do the job.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO evidence for a pretrib resurrection/rapture. Yes, the CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL be on earth during the Tribulation.

In fact, Rev 22:16 tells us WHY and to WHOM the book was written:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Yet, creates a complete contradiction in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the unsaved. Acts 24:15
The Bible teaches that WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur: "when He comes", which is 2nd Advent. 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches plainly that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:4,5
The Bible teaches plainly that the "gathering up" of living believers for the resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3

These are facts. Any supposed believer resurrection BEFORE the Trib contradicts all these fact.

Huh? What I posted is perfectly clear. Are you eyes and ears open or not?

I invite you to look up each citation that I included with each of the 5 facts and see for yourself if my facts align with the Bible or not.


I don't get your question. What do the 24 elders have to do with WHEN the singular resurrection will occur?


Rather, now is YOUR chance to prove that you know anything.

I've given 5 facts, all backed up with Scripture. You are invited to examine every citation listed with the 5 facts and prove me wrong if I am. You have claimed that my 5 facts don't make any sense. Can you prove that? Can you prove that my facts aren't facts?

My facts are clearly stated. I've given verses for every fact.

Please don't blow YOUR big chance.

What's that old saying.......if you say a lie often enough people will believe it? I would say that holds true except in the case of born-again believing Christians.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You do not bother to address the very specific points that I presented. Because you can't.
No post-tribber can. They just ignore, deny, and then misdirect. Like a biblical shell and pea hustle.

The Church is already in heaven and Revelation chapter 4 and 5. The 70th week of Daniel begins in chapter 6. Ipso facto.....pretrib is unquestionably the correct view. Nobody here has even come close to adequately refuting what I have presented.

Whatever you presented is based on a false premise that “THE CHURCH”, tribulation saints - aka “Left Behind”, and Israel are separate groups in the eyes of God and deserve different treatments. That’s the fruit from a poisonous tree. Same as the “peace treaty” and “third temple” scenario. That’s not exegetical analysis. That’s propaganda.

 

[cv5]

Whatever you presented is based on a false premise that “THE CHURCH”, tribulation saints - aka “Left Behind”, and Israel are separate groups in the eyes of God and deserve different treatments. That’s the fruit from a poisonous tree. Same as the “peace treaty” and “third temple” scenario. That’s not exegetical analysis. That’s propaganda.

There you go again. Failing to address the very specific points that I presented. And yes absolutely there are such a group, a category of the first resurrection, known as tribulation saints.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope. You show me the term Church anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18. You show me the Church preaching anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18.

This is totally irrelevant. The book OPENS with letters to 7 CHURCHES. Note the opening 3 verses:

Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
Now, note the last chapter of Revelation:

22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So, the book OPENS with letters to 7 CHURCHES. And ENDS with "this testimony FOR THE CHURCHES".

Don't kid yourself. Everything in Revelation is FOR THE CHURCHES. Obviously.

Compare and contrast this glaring omission with the number of times the term "Church" is used from Matt thru Jude.....77 times. And then 7 more times in the 7 epistles to the Churches in Revelation 2&3. And that's all.....that's it.....it's over.

Irrelevant.

Look people this isn't rocket science. Simple deductive reasoning will do the job.

Exactly!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nope. You show me the term Church anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18. You show me the Church preaching anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 through 18.

Compare and contrast this glaring omission with the number of times the term "Church" is used from Matt thru Jude.....77 times. And then 7 more times in the 7 epistles to the Churches in Revelation 2&3. And that's all.....that's it.....it's over.

Look people this isn't rocket science. Simple deductive reasoning will do the job.

Ecclasia, the original word for "church" actually means an assembly or a congregation called out for a purpose. It could be the same as a committee or a town hall meeting. It's never meant to be an organization or a building. The Great Tribulation will separate the tares and wheat. This "harvest of souls" can only take place at least when the "sealing" and the "marking" are finished at some point during the tribulation.

And haven’t you noticed that unlike Paul’s epistles, the seven letters in Rev. 2-3 are addressed to the seven guardian ANGELS of those seven churches? Throughout the entire Bible angel always means angelic spiritual beings from heaven serving as messengers, and in Rev. 2-3 there’s no difference. By that definition of ecclesia, just because it’s no longer mentioned in the following chapters doesn’t mean they’re gone. If you get a grip on the harsh circumstances, you would realize that church no longer mentioned not because they’re out of the earth, but because they’ve “fallen away” in that great apostasy in 2 Thess 2:2-3, the organizations are broken up into individual saints. It takes heavenly effort by the Two Witnesses to bring them back.

Take a look at the disciples from the arrest at Gasthemane to the crucifixion at Calvary. When the day comes, Christians on Earth will react in similar ways. There’ll be Judas church that betrays, Peter church that denies, John church that endures till the end, and others that run away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO evidence for a pretrib resurrection/rapture. Yes, the CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL be on earth during the Tribulation.

In fact, Rev 22:16 tells us WHY and to WHOM the book was written:

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Yet, creates a complete contradiction in the Bible.

The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection for the unsaved. Acts 24:15
The Bible teaches that WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur: "when He comes", which is 2nd Advent. 1 Cor 15:23
The Bible teaches plainly that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:4,5
The Bible teaches plainly that the "gathering up" of living believers for the resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. 2 Thess 2:1-3

These are facts. Any supposed believer resurrection BEFORE the Trib contradicts all these fact.

Huh? What I posted is perfectly clear. Are you eyes and ears open or not?

I invite you to look up each citation that I included with each of the 5 facts and see for yourself if my facts align with the Bible or not.

I don't get your question. What do the 24 elders have to do with WHEN the singular resurrection will occur?

Rather, now is YOUR chance to prove that you know anything.

What's that old saying.......if you say a lie often enough people will believe it? I would say that holds true except in the case of born-again believing Christians.

Yep, you DID blow it, big time.

I ended my post with this:

"I've given 5 facts, all backed up with Scripture. You are invited to examine every citation listed with the 5 facts and prove me wrong if I am. You have claimed that my 5 facts don't make any sense. Can you prove that? Can you prove that my facts aren't facts?

My facts are clearly stated. I've given verses for every fact.

Please don't blow YOUR big chance."

Too bad. You had a great opportunity to prove me wrong. Instead, you make up stuff (LIE). How sad.

I gave you a legitimate challenge and you lowered yourself to lying.

If my 5 facts are not true, why didn't you prove it?

In fact, the stupid claim that I just keep lying only reveals what you think of Scripture itself, since I BACKED UP every fact with Scripture.

You could have easily proved me wrong by addressing the verses and showing how they didn't back up my facts.

You didn't because you CAN'T. And you know it. So you lied instead.

That's just wonderful.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There you go again. Failing to address the very specific points that I presented.

Now, this is rich!! I gave you 5 facts, each one supported by verses. And I invited you to prove me wrong.

Wow. Talk about "failing to address the very specific points that I presented".

You have DONE exactly what you charge Carry_your_Name of doing.

You know what that is called, don't you. HYPOCRITE. Big time.

 

[cv5]

Ecclasia, the original word for "church" actually means an assembly or a congregation called out for a purpose. It could be the same as a committee or a town hall meeting. It's never meant to be an organization or a building. The Great Tribulation will separate the tares and wheat. This "harvest of souls" can only take place at least when the "sealing" and the "marking" are finished at some point during the tribulation.

And haven’t you noticed that unlike Paul’s epistles, the seven letters in Rev. 2-3 are addressed to the seven guardian ANGELS of those seven churches? Throughout the entire Bible angel always means angelic spiritual beings from heaven serving as messengers, and in Rev. 2-3 there’s no difference. By that definition of ecclesia, just because it’s no longer mentioned in the following chapters doesn’t mean they’re gone. If you get a grip on the harsh circumstances, you would realize that church no longer mentioned not because they’re out of the earth, but because they’ve “fallen away” in that great apostasy in 2 Thess 2:2-3, the organizations are broken up into individual saints. It takes heavenly effort by the Two Witnesses to bring them back.

Take a look at the disciples from the arrest at Gasthemane to the crucifixion at Calvary. When the day comes, Christians on Earth will react in similar ways. There’ll be Judas church that betrays, Peter church that denies, John church that endures till the end, and others that run away.

That is a mass of inchoate conjecture. Furthermore the Church is indestructible. Absolutely infallibly indestructible.....Matt 16:18. And the seven Churches of revelation are absolutely as real and tangible as any Church today.

During the 70th week of Daniel however......those indestructibility rules no longer apply. Because the Church is no longer on the earth at that time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is a mass of inchoate conjecture. Furthermore the Church is indestructible. Absolutely infallibly indestructible.....Matt 16:18. And the seven Churches of revelation are absolutely as real and tangible as any Church today.

During the 70th week of Daniel however......those indestructibility rules no longer apply. Because the Church is no longer on the earth at that time.

Then how come that many will fall away, be offended, betray another as their love grow cold? Hasn’t that already come to pass over the last two years?

And the seven churches are nowhere near “indestructible”. Read the passages carefully. There’re only two good churches, all the other five are criticized, and as for Laodicea, the last one, Jesus doesn’t even have a single good thing to say about it, they’re boasting of their wealth and there’s nothing commendable. If you believe that those seven churches represent seven historical periods, at least seven zeitgeists - spirit of the age, then we’re in the last one, the vast majority of churches in America are Laodiceans.

 

[cv5]

Then how come that many will fall away, be offended, betray another as their love grow cold? Hasn’t that already come to pass over the last two years?

And the seven churches are nowhere near “indestructible”. Read the passages carefully. There’re only two good churches, all the other five are criticized, and as for Laodicea, the last one, Jesus doesn’t even have a single good thing to say about it, they’re boasting of their wealth and there’s nothing commendable. If you believe that those seven churches represent seven historical periods, at least seven zeitgeists - spirit of the age, then we’re in the last one, the vast majority of churches in America are Laodiceans.

The first part of that post (Matt 24:10, 11) relates only to Israel.

I think YOU had better carefully read the seven letters to seven Churches. Judgment only comes upon unbelievers, apostates, heretics. "I will fight against them" "I will cast her" "I will kill her children with death".

To the true faithful believers in all these Churches there are absolutely bulletproof guarantees of salvation and blessing......and no judgment whatsoever!

 

[riverhooks]

My friend never forget the fact that the Church is no longer on the earth during the tribulation. The Jews and Gentiles that remain suffer through the 70th week judgments. The sheep and goats aka nations judgments pertain not at all to the Church in any fashion whatsoever. You must understand that no judgment whatsoever comes upon the faithful Church. To the extent that they are not even around when it happens.

Taking the Church out of the time and place of the 70th week of Daniel resolves all issues, identities and supposed paradoxes.

I’ll go with the Bible . We are talking about what the Bible says. The Church is on the earth at the Second Coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The first part of that post (Matt 24:10, 11) relates only to Israel.

I think YOU had better carefully read the seven letters to seven Churches. Judgment only comes upon unbelievers, apostates, heretics. "I will fight against them" "I will cast her" "I will kill her children with death".

To the true faithful believers in all these Churches there are absolutely bulletproof guarantees of salvation and blessing......and no judgment whatsoever!

Nonetheless, Jesus threatened to remove the lampstand (Rev 2:5), the spirit burning bright, and that’s for the Ephesians church, one of the earliest churches which Paul wrote a letter to. And speaking of “her”, how was king Ahab doing? You know, Ahab - who brought her in and fell under her spell? Did he get spared while Jezebel was thrown out of the tower?

 

[peldom10]

It is sad but, what you are seeing in this thread is a feeble attempt by ...new age religion leftists type ......to miss lead many from the scriptures. Be careful and study the Bible...you will see the basis for individual discernment....as God directs.
The point is captured here by Billy Graham concerning the requirement of baptism;baptism;

​

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy.​

​

....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth​

​

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.​

​

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.​

​

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.​

​

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.​

​

Conclusion;​

​

Also, teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).​

 

[cv5]

I’ll go with the Bible . We are talking about what the Bible says. The Church is on the earth at the Second Coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 .

Thanks for the rapture verses buddy. Our blessed hope is coming soon. Truly it warms the heart.

1 Thes 1:10
And wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered (G4506) us from the wrath to come.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I’ll go with the Bible . We are talking about what the Bible says. The Church is on the earth at the Second Coming of Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 .

Don't you think there's a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit? The Church was born on Pentecost by the supernatural anointing of the Holy Spirit, but that's the Helper Jesus promised, not Jesus Himself.