The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

So am I!



That's not a theory, there're many references of Hades scattered here and there in the bible, you just need to connect the dots. Psalm 16:10 is quoted by Peter in his sermons in Acts 2:27 and Acts 13:35 regarding the resurrection.

I wrote this post below against pre-trib doctrine. You know, it's not just that this doctrine itself is wrong, it has deadly ramifications. It puts the hope of salvation on that rapture instead of God's saving grace, and it shifts the focus from Jesus onto modern state of Israel. At its best it's merely a misinterpretation, at its worst it's a Zionist propaganda that has captured the wing of conservative evangelicals in America.

https://communities.win/c/Christianity/p/141rjZNE9u/why-is-the-false-doctrine-of-pre/c

Paradise at one time was adjacent to hell.

Paul did not go to paradise under the earth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paradise at one time was adjacent to hell.

Paul did not go to paradise under the earth.

What is the proof of that, and why it matters?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You know, many of them have this argument that since Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour", and "I come at an hour which you do not expect", it must be pre trib because any other possibility would allow you to figure out that Jesus returns exactly 3.5 years later

Nah... that's one of those lame arguments which does not hold water... and which I actually addresed back in Post #2872 (pg 144 of this thread):

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4784467

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ oh, and P.S. In my studies of the timing and calendar issues (believe me, I've tried every possible "configuration" over my many yrs of studying this aspect), my conclusion is that it is not a "fall-to-fall" 7 yrs, nor a "spring-to-fall" GREAT tribulation (i.e. the second half, the 3.5 yrs)... but a "spring-to-spring" 7 yrs... Rev8:1-5, for example, is describing things that are associated with the Day of Atonement (fall)...and v.13 speaks of Trumpets 5-7 [3 Woes] (Trumpet #5 being at MID-trib)... and kings went "[/go] out to battle" at a very specific time of the year (think: Rev19), plus many other *reasons* (derived from Scripture) for my conclusion. Just thought I'd mention that too = )



[another example: I do not believe the "1335 days" MEANS that there are "75 [extra] days" BEYOND the 1260 days / second half... though there IS a little bit of extension involved, just not THAT MANY (75) extra days]

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

^ oh, and P.S. In my studies of the timing and calendar issues (believe me, I've tried every possible "configuration" over my many yrs of studying this aspect), my conclusion is that it is not a "fall-to-fall" 7 yrs, nor a "spring-to-fall" GREAT tribulation (i.e. the second half, the 3.5 yrs)... but a "spring-to-spring" 7 yrs... Rev8:1-5, for example, is describing things that are associated with the Day of Atonement (fall)...and v.13 speaks of Trumpets 5-7 [3 Woes] (Trumpet #5 being at MID-trib)... and kings went "[/go] out to battle" at a very specific time of the year (think: Rev19), plus many other *reasons* (derived from Scripture) for my conclusion. Just thought I'd mention that too = )



[another example: I do not believe the "1335 days" MEANS that there are "75 [extra] days" BEYOND the 1260 days / second half... though there IS a little bit of extension involved, just not THAT MANY (75) extra days]

I did my own study on timing and calendar too, see this link below. My conclusion is that you can have a rough estimate, but it's impossible to set an exact date on the common Gregorian calendar, because there are three definitions of years - solar year of 365.24 days, lunar year of 354.36 days and prophetic year of 360 days, and there're three corresponding calendar systems. Based on the chronologies in the bible you can draw a timeline, but there's no way to convert it into Gregorian calendar.

https://communities.win/c/Christianity/p/141YgAu4Qz/lunar-solar-and-prophetic-years-/c

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I happen to disagree that it is impossible to come to an exact date... I believe the particular wording in a portion of Daniel 12 will provide the [believing remnant of] Jews/Israel ("the WISE [of Israel] WILL UNDERSTAND" v.10) the precise day-amounts they WILL come to "grasp" (via Scripture) when they find themselves IN those trib yrs (following "our Rapture"--which event will be a primary IMPETUS that turns [the believing remnant of] Israel TO faith in their Messiah [Jesus Christ])--

...they will be among the FIRST to "get it" (not merely the TIMING issues, tho that TOO) and will set about informing (and "INVITING") the "guests" (i.e. the Gentiles of that time period);

the "7 years" between the FIRST SEAL and Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, is "2520 days" total (i.e. the "360-day" prophetic thing... NOT that the years themselves will somehow convert back to a "360-day calendar-year" [NO!], if that makes sense... lol).

The Jews [/believing remnant of] will certainly "UNDERSTAND" (though I find that most today do not grasp the issue... nor is it a requirement[!] [I don't believe "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will BE IN the Trib, of course)]... but I do believe that it sure is a JOY to peek into the matter and catch a glimpse of what THEY will come to see...)

... yeah, I believe it is PRECISE.

 

[cv5]

You know, many of them have this argument that since Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour", and "I come at an hour which you do not expect", it must be pre trib because any other possibility would allow you to figure out that Jesus returns exactly 3.5 years later - if when the Antichrist is revealed and we're still here. What they don't understand is that "no one knows the day or the hour" is just a common idiom at the time. If you've done some studies on the Torah and the Jewish feasts, then it's not hard to figure out that He'll return on the Day of Atonement, that's when trumpets will sound and the "elect" are gathered to afflict their souls, and right after that is a jubilee year. By His first coming he fulfilled the spring feasts at His death and resurrection, by His second coming he's gonna fulfill the fall feasts. It's all in Lev. 23. The Lord never wants us to be ignorant on this. The purpose of this saying is to tell His followers to stay watchful and alert, be prepared for the day and don't fall asleep like the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And by the way, this is not date setting. There's no way to pin point that date on a calendar, not even a Jewish calendar because it's hundreds of years off.

Nope. That phrase has everything to do with the Feast of Trumpets, "the head of the year" the Jewish civil new year, the sighting of the new moon. The Church per se has absolutely no connection to the Day of Atonement.......this is for Israel alone. The fall feast prophetic series begins with the Feast of Trumpets.....which, In terms of end-time eschatology is the head of the new millennial year. I think that's what Jesus is indicating by the statements. IMO the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the 70th week of Daniel......not at the end of it.

Every Jew in Israel realized time/season of the head of the year. But the exact day or hour can only be confirmed by an actual sighting of the new moon. Every Jew understood perfectly well what Jesus meant by that phrase.

So you may want to consider is that the Day of the Lord actually begins in Heaven when the Lamb takes the scroll Rev 5......far beyond the purview of any earth dwellers. The Church, typified by the 24 elders, is already present. These 24 elders of every tribe tribe, tongue, people and nation, kings and priests with white robes crowns and thrones are unquestionably by definition the Church.....already raptured BEFORE Jesus begins His judgment and conquest. The Church is nowhere mentioned between Rev chapters 6 through 18. Israel is now recommissioned the task of preaching the gospel.

You don't need to be a genius to realize what's happening here and what's happening is a pretrib rapture followed by DOTL 70th week of Daniel judgments upon the earth dwellers, culminating in the final redemption of Israel and a millennial reign.

The pretrib rapture has everything going for it. Overwhelming support everywhere you look. I have yet to see any argument that convinces me otherwise in the least. You may be surprised but IMO every post-trib argument supports pretrib.....because of the absurdity that post-trib inevitably carries with it.

 

[walknlight]

Good Morning !

Paradise at one time was adjacent to hell.

Paul did not go to paradise under the earth.

In the parable of the sower , are there not 3 groups of people the our Lord speak of?
Unbelievers
"Used to be" believers
True believers
no?

God Bless!

 

[cv5]

You know, many of them have this argument that since Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour", and "I come at an hour which you do not expect", it must be pre trib because any other possibility would allow you to figure out that Jesus returns exactly 3.5 years later - if when the Antichrist is revealed and we're still here. What they don't understand is that "no one knows the day or the hour" is just a common idiom at the time. If you've done some studies on the Torah and the Jewish feasts, then it's not hard to figure out that He'll return on the Day of Atonement, that's when trumpets will sound and the "elect" are gathered to afflict their souls, and right after that is a jubilee year. By His first coming he fulfilled the spring feasts at His death and resurrection, by His second coming he's gonna fulfill the fall feasts. It's all in Lev. 23. The Lord never wants us to be ignorant on this. The purpose of this saying is to tell His followers to stay watchful and alert, be prepared for the day and don't fall asleep like the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane.

And by the way, this is not date setting. There's no way to pin point that date on a calendar, not even a Jewish calendar because it's hundreds of years off.

I think you're missing the point here. When Jesus uses this phrase pertaining to His 2nd coming to the earth........it's about wrath and judgment. It is a warning to be prepared!

However, as far as the Church is concerned, imminency is about Jesus snatching (harpazo) His Bride while she waits in JOYFUL ANTICIPATION for her blessed hope of the Groom taking her to His heavenly abode. Anticipation for the appearing of Jesus (when we will be gathered to Him) is all about the Jewish wedding ceremony as far as the Church is concerned. There is not the slightest nuance of an ominous dread of judgment here.

This dichotomy cannot possibly be more succinct.

 

[walknlight]

Good Morning !


In the parable of the sower , are there not 3 groups of people the our Lord speak of?
Unbelievers
"Used to be" believers
True believers
no?

God Bless!

Anyone?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nope. That phrase has everything to do with the Feast of Trumpets, "the head of the year" the Jewish civil new year, the sighting of the new moon. The Church per se has absolutely no connection to the Day of Atonement.......this is for Israel alone. The fall feast prophetic series begins with the Feast of Trumpets.....which, In terms of end-time eschatology is the head of the new millennial year. I think that's what Jesus is indicating by the statements. IMO the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the 70th week of Daniel......not at the end of it.

Every Jew in Israel realized time/season of the head of the year. But the exact day or hour can only be confirmed by an actual sighting of the new moon. Every Jew understood perfectly well what Jesus meant by that phrase.

So you may want to consider is that the Day of the Lord actually begins in Heaven when the Lamb takes the scroll Rev 5......far beyond the purview of any earth dwellers. The Church, typified by the 24 elders, is already present. These 24 elders of every tribe tribe, tongue, people and nation, kings and priests with white robes crowns and thrones are unquestionably by definition the Church.....already raptured BEFORE Jesus begins His judgment and conquest. The Church is nowhere mentioned between Rev chapters 6 through 18. Israel is now recommissioned the task of preaching the gospel.

You don't need to be a genius to realize what's happening here and what's happening is a pretrib rapture followed by DOTL 70th week of Daniel judgments upon the earth dwellers, culminating in the final redemption of Israel and a millennial reign.

The pretrib rapture has everything going for it. Overwhelming support everywhere you look. I have yet to see any argument that convinces me otherwise in the least. You may be surprised but IMO every post-trib argument supports pretrib.....because of the absurdity that post-trib inevitably carries with it.

There’s only one Body of Christ at the end, which is the universal church! There’s no Jew or Greek, for all are one in Christ! This is not “replacement theology”, this is just what it is. When the Lord returns He returns for ALL. The “sheep and goats judgement” is the Lord’s ceremony of goat atonement on that day, that’s the judgement of the NATIONs, aka us, the gentiles. How is that exclusive to Israel?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Carry_Your_Name ,

consider a couple of things:

--Eph1:10 is not speaking of the "NOW" (though the rest of the epistle IS), in its phrase" in the dispensation of the FULNESS of times";

--"Do not become a stumbling block, whether to Jews or Greeks [i.e. Gentiles] or the church of God—" 1Cor10:32 (each of these three groups can be traced throughout scripture); We / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are made up of both Jew and Gentile, but are considered NEITHER in our standing before God "IN CHRIST";

--Matthew 25:31-34 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) is indeed about the Gentiles / nations (not vv.40,45, who are not the ones BEING judged / separated in this context... but whom the nations either aided or did NOT aid during the Trib years, and thus who [those of the "nations"] will either be called by our Lord "ye BLESSED" or "ye CURSED" [reflective of a certain OT passage you may recall]); No one is being "resurrected" in this passage (same as its counterpart in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: the end [singular] of the age [singular]"--not to be conflated with "[in] this present age [singular]" )... IOW, "the least of these My brethren" ain't "the Gentiles / nations"... nor are they "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"; and the SHEEP ['the righteous'] will then procede to ENTER the EARTHLY Millennnial Kingdom age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (they are not "RAPTURED / SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP [IN THE AIR]"), and... they "SHALL NEVER DIE" (Jesus' words, in Jn11:25-26)

 

[riverhooks]

We see 2 "comings" in mat 24.

One after the trib
One " before the flood" ( may be around vs 31 or so.)

That would be a huge problem for you.

Are you sure plain and simple statements as Martha’s in the Gospel of John as I know my Brother shall rise on the Last Day would not be a huge problem for you ? I just got up and am drinking coffee. Before we discuss the Bible can we agree to be a little less narcissistic with our speech with others that have different opinions. It would make it easier to share . Peace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Many times even the questions post-tribbers ask don't make sense let alone their answers.

Those who would simply open their eyes and BELIEVE the verses shared, the questions do make sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know, many of them have this argument that since Jesus said "no one knows the day or the hour", and "I come at an hour which you do not expect", it must be pre trib because any other possibility would allow you to figure out that Jesus returns exactly 3.5 years later - if when the Antichrist is revealed and we're still here. What they don't understand is that "no one knows the day or the hour" is just a common idiom at the time.

Quite correct. I've always taken that phrase to mean that no one will know SPECIFICALLY the actual hour or day. Jesus said nothing about the month or year.

If you've done some studies on the Torah and the Jewish feasts, then it's not hard to figure out that He'll return on the Day of Atonement, that's when trumpets will sound and the "elect" are gathered to afflict their souls, and right after that is a jubilee year. By His first coming he fulfilled the spring feasts at His death and resurrection, by His second coming he's gonna fulfill the fall feasts. It's all in Lev. 23. The Lord never wants us to be ignorant on this. The purpose of this saying is to tell His followers to stay watchful and alert, be prepared for the day and don't fall asleep like the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I haven't been all that interested in the Jewish feasts. I know He will come when He comes. But when I study the first 4 seal judgments (the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse) it seems to me that we have already been experiencing the first 3, with the 4th close behind. I have a relative who was totally convinced that the "rapture" would occur in 2021. I took that as maybe her calculations supporting the Trib starting last year. Anyway, I told her if she lives into 2022 to give me a call. I'm still waiting for the call.

And by the way, this is not date setting. There's no way to pin point that date on a calendar, not even a Jewish calendar because it's hundreds of years off.

Exactly. There's no point in even trying to set dates. What I'm interested in is the overall plan and sequence of events. And that seems to be quite clear in Scripture. I guess by the time the 6th seal occurs (Rev 6:12-14), it will be clear that the Trib HAS begun.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good Morning !


In the parable of the sower , are there not 3 groups of people the our Lord speak of?
Unbelievers
"Used to be" believers
True believers
no?

God Bless!

No. Your answer was to Abs, but I can't resist responding. The # of "groups" depend on how you define a "group".

soil 1 = unbeliever (v.12)
soil 2 = believer who produced no fruit due to testing/temptations (v.13)
soil 3 = believer who produced no fruit due to the details of life which kept them from spiritual growth (distracted) v.14
soil 4 = believer who grew up spiritually and produced fruit (v.15)

Luke 8:5-15

 

[cv5]

There’s only one Body of Christ at the end, which is the universal church! There’s no Jew or Greek, for all are one in Christ! This is not “replacement theology”, this is just what it is. When the Lord returns He returns for ALL. The “sheep and goats judgement” is the Lord’s ceremony of goat atonement on that day, that’s the judgement of the NATIONs, aka us, the gentiles. How is that exclusive to Israel?

You do not bother to address the very specific points that I presented. Because you can't.
No post-tribber can. They just ignore, deny, and then misdirect. Like a biblical shell and pea hustle.

The Church is already in heaven and Revelation chapter 4 and 5. The 70th week of Daniel begins in chapter 6. Ipso facto.....pretrib is unquestionably the correct view. Nobody here has even come close to adequately refuting what I have presented.

 

[riverhooks]

The Last Day , and the Last Trumpet The Rapture , a Question of Timing William R. Kimball


The Last Day
“ Martha confronted the Lord and acknowleded that her brother would “rise again in the AT THE LAST DAY” (John 11:24)
It is import to note that Martha’s resurrection perspective was not based upon empty Jewish tradition or vain speculation, for Christ repeatedly confirmed this truth as well:
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent , that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY (John 6:39).
And this is the will of him that sent me, the EVERYONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY (John 6:40)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY ( John 6:44).
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY ( JOHN 6:54 )

Certain obvious conclusions can be drawn from from these statements. Since the catching up of the saints is synonymous with the resurrection of the dead in Christ ( 1 Thess. 4: 16, 17 ), it is plain to see that the rapture will take place “ AT THE LAST DAY, “ and not seven years prior to the last day. Furthermore , the language in these verses leaves little room for uncertainty. Jesus used the words “all” and everyone” when referring to those believers who would be resurrected, and also specified that it would happen on the “last day”. Certainly He didn’t imply “ all with some exceptions”, everyone minus a pretrib company, or “last day” give or take seven years. “All doesn’t leave much room for omissions. Neither does “last day” leave room for last day plus seven years !

“The Last Trumpet”
The scriptures not only associate the resurrection with the last day, but also tie it to the sounding of the “last trumpet”. In the two key rapture passages we read:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first : then we which are alive and remain shall be

 

[riverhooks]

The Last Day , and the Last Trumpet The Rapture , a Question of Timing William R. Kimball


The Last Day
“ Martha confronted the Lord and acknowleded that her brother would “rise again in the AT THE LAST DAY” (John 11:24)
It is import to note that Martha’s resurrection perspective was not based upon empty Jewish tradition or vain speculation, for Christ repeatedly confirmed this truth as well:
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent , that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY (John 6:39).
And this is the will of him that sent me, the EVERYONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY (John 6:40)
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY ( John 6:44).
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY ( JOHN 6:54 )

Certain obvious conclusions can be drawn from from these statements. Since the catching up of the saints is synonymous with the resurrection of the dead in Christ ( 1 Thess. 4: 16, 17 ), it is plain to see that the rapture will take place “ AT THE LAST DAY, “ and not seven years prior to the last day. Furthermore , the language in these verses leaves little room for uncertainty. Jesus used the words “all” and everyone” when referring to those believers who would be resurrected, and also specified that it would happen on the “last day”. Certainly He didn’t imply “ all with some exceptions”, everyone minus a pretrib company, or “last day” give or take seven years. “All doesn’t leave much room for omissions. Neither does “last day” leave room for last day plus seven years !

“The Last Trumpet”
The scriptures not only associate the resurrection with the last day, but also tie it to the sounding of the “last trumpet”. In the two key rapture passages we read:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first : then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air( 1 Thess. 4:16,17 NKJV )

Behold , I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed __in a moment, in the twinkling of and eye , at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed ( 1 Cor15:51,52 NKJV )

 

[cv5]

There’s only one Body of Christ at the end, which is the universal church! There’s no Jew or Greek, for all are one in Christ! This is not “replacement theology”, this is just what it is. When the Lord returns He returns for ALL. The “sheep and goats judgement” is the Lord’s ceremony of goat atonement on that day, that’s the judgement of the NATIONs, aka us, the gentiles. How is that exclusive to Israel?

My friend never forget the fact that the Church is no longer on the earth during the tribulation. The Jews and Gentiles that remain suffer through the 70th week judgments. The sheep and goats aka nations judgments pertain not at all to the Church in any fashion whatsoever. You must understand that no judgment whatsoever comes upon the faithful Church. To the extent that they are not even around when it happens.

Taking the Church out of the time and place of the 70th week of Daniel resolves all issues, identities and supposed paradoxes.