The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[oyster67]

After the Rapture...

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Only "TOLD" to MM, who was instructed by Him to "GO TO MY BRETHREN and SAY UNTO THEM"... she did that and "THEY BELIEVED NOT"!! See Mark 10-11

EDIT to CORRECT reference: should read "Mark 16:10-11"

 

[oyster67]

After the Rapture...

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

It is only after this that the second coming happens.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

After the Rapture...

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Do you think that the real rapture is the resurrection and ascension of the Two Witnesses in Rev. 11:11-12?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Scripture never states of the "two witnesses" that they are "SNATCHED" ("harpazo [G726--commonly called 'rapture']"). Just sayin' = )

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

^ Scripture never states of the "two witnesses" that they are "SNATCHED" ("harpazo [G726--commonly called 'rapture']"). Just sayin' = )

Well the wording may be slightly different, but the result is the same. That word "rapture" doesn't necessarily mean a physical "snap", it could be describing a mental state that your attention completely captivated by something marvelous, you just can’t think of anything else or look at anywhere else. That’s what everybody will be like when Jesus returns.

 

[FreeGrace2]

oyster67 said:
After the Rapture...

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

It is only after this that the second coming happens.

I was about to make a correction but then I came to this post, where you clarified!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you think that the real rapture is the resurrection and ascension of the Two Witnesses in Rev. 11:11-12?

No. Can't be. The Bible teaches just one resurrection for the saved and one resurrection for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

That said, we now know WHEN the single resurrection of the saved will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse shows the order of resurrection:

1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

 

[oyster67]

Do you think that the real rapture is the resurrection and ascension of the Two Witnesses in Rev. 11:11-12?

No. Rapture comes before Trib and before Marriage and before Second Coming and before Millennium and before Final State.

 

[peldom10]

riverhooks said:
Because the pretribulationist version is the biggest kidnapping in History will take place and everyone will wonder where the believers went airplanes will fall from the sky their pilots raptured , cars will run over pedestrians their drivers raptured . These are the scenarios of pretribulationist rapture books. I for one. The Blessed Hope is not the pretribulationist rapture. It is a false teaching look to scripture The Blessed hope is the Lords return . I still haven’t found someone that is a pretribulationist speak any scripture to support such an event . Bible is clear . Clear the catching up of the living believers to meet the Lord in the air is at the first resurrection. At the Second Coming of Christ not the Third. Read your Bible Amigo.

Please make an attempt to prove your claim. At least.

If they have interest...I will. You don't need it...do you?

 

[peldom10]

Well the wording may be slightly different, but the result is the same. That word "rapture" doesn't necessarily mean a physical "snap", it could be describing a mental state that your attention completely captivated by something marvelous, you just can’t think of anything else or look at anywhere else. That’s what everybody will be like when Jesus returns.

Look at that ....again. What purpose does that association serve?
That appears as a stretch.

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.

At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.

There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

Didn't you read the last sentence in my post above?

My reading Bible is very worn, for sure. That's because I've been reading through the NT monthly for about 2 decades.

But, no thank you. The notes I've written in it are too valuable to to leave, and too much work trying to incorporate them into a new Bible. But thanks anyway.

On a side note, I continue to just be amazed at the extreme stubborness of pretribbers. IN SPITE of having NO evidence for a trip to heaven led by Jesus in glorified bodies, y'all just keep pushing that narrative.

Why?

Or better, why would God give us His Word but leave out such an important event, if such an event will be part of the future?

It just makes no sense.

Please go with what has been written. You cann't go wrong with that.

But, since you are so convinced of this presumed trip to heaven after getting a glorified body, could you please list briefly the verses that have convinced you of it?

Thank you. As you don't, I don't want to be wrong either.

He didn't leave it out. It is there in a manner that a limited person or a child of 10 can discern what God is saying to us. You just don't want to give up a failed view for the facts. You remind me of many in the left group in DC.

 

[Absolutely]

2) [re: His SECOND ascension, Acts 1]
"THUS..."
"IN LIKE MANNER"
"AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM TRAVELING INTO HEAVEN" (from the mount of Olives)

[reflective of "every eye shall SEE Him..." "...and they [/"the TRIBES of the earth" (note: a word used only of Israel, throughout Scripture)] will SEE the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" Matt24:29-31 / Rev19 / Isaiah 27:[9],12-13... His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (Zech 14:4)]




[but back up some "40 days" earlier...]

1) [re: His FIRST ascension, ON FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12 (His Resurrection Day, 1Cor15:20)]
note: the above ^ (#2) was His later ascension... He did one "FORTY DAYS" PRIOR to this ON FIRSTFRUIT/His RESURRECTION day (John 20:17), which was VISIBLE TO NO ONE!!! Only "TOLD" to MM, who was instructed by Him to "GO TO MY BRETHREN and SAY UNTO THEM"... she did that and "THEY BELIEVED NOT"!! See Mark 10-11 (So then, Jesus "UPBRAIDED" the eleven "with their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS OF HEART, because they BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen" [Mary Magdalene INCLUDED!], Mark 16:14)

[reflective of what we see Scripture describing as the circumstances (and mindsets) FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (for those persons who will then be existing IN the Trib years, on the earth) as I had spelled out in a previous post...]







The pattern is consistent! [<--open the eyeballs ]







[you are requiring "horses" to be in EVERY context talking about His Second Coming to the earth (even in these patterns)... but I don't believe even you yourself, if you LISTED EVERY passage you think speaks of His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19), see "horses" in EACH OF THOSE texts. Think about it.]

No
I am looking at " like manner" in the rapture vs YOUR " like manner" with all those dynamics in "YOUR LIKE MANNER" added that ARE NOT THERE.
BTW, I listed 10 things.

There is 100% alignment in Acts 1 and the rapture
100%!!!

In your model, there is basically zero.
My list totally disproves your take on acts one being the second coming on white horses.

That is what is being presented.

You add" from the mount of olives" when the bible depicts him in the air,( standing on air,... NOWHERE on earth)
But you add that in where it isn't there in the verse.

What is bizarre is that you can not admit the ascension of Acts 1 MIRRORS PERFECTLY the rapture of 1 thes 1.

 

[peldom10]

No. Can't be. The Bible teaches just one resurrection for the saved and one resurrection for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

That said, we now know WHEN the single resurrection of the saved will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse shows the order of resurrection:

1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

...taken up...rapture....you have added Heaven...haven't you? Where did that come from?

 

[Absolutely]

No. Can't be. The Bible teaches just one resurrection for the saved and one resurrection for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

That said, we now know WHEN the single resurrection of the saved will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse shows the order of resurrection:

1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

""""What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.""""

Oh ,no ,no ,no.
We need a verse that SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT.
(SINCE YOU MADE IT UP IN YOUR MIND.)

 

[peldom10]

...timed out.....#2972

How do you plan to get from this earthly body to a spiritual body...if not by the rapture type translation?
Do you expect for your soul to appear in Heaven in this worthless physical body? Surely not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.

At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.

There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

He didn't leave it out. It is there in a manner that a limited person or a child of 10 can discern what God is saying to us. You just don't want to give up a failed view for the facts.

Prove your so-called "fact" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. Please.

You remind me of many in the left group in DC.

Does this super snarky quip make you feel somehow better? Or maybe more superior?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

...taken up...rapture....

Taken up to "the clouds". Only.

you have added Heaven...haven't you? Where did that come from?

I didn't add anything. It's the pretribbers who have added heaven to the gathering, caught up event. They think Jesus will take the glorified believers to heaven. Where is that taught in the Bible?

What is perfectly clear from Scripture is that there is just ONE resurrection for believers.
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Singular
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” ditto
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. One resurrection each.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Again, singular, "when He comes". That is a singular event, called the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

What do the red words in both verses refer to, if not the Second Advent?

Those believers "who are alive and remain" per 1 Thess 4 will NOT go to heaven. This is proven by Rev 20:5.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The blue words show these martyrs come out of the Trib. The red words show that they are resurrected and will reign with Christ during the Millennial reign, which is after the Tribulation.

The purpose words specifically call the resurrection of these martyrs the FIRST resurrection.

There is no getting around the FACT that there can be NO pretrib resurrection or rapture.

There is only ONE resurrection for the saved, and that resurrection will occur "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.

But you are free to address each of these verses and prove to the thread that they don't say what I believe they say, and say so clearly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""""What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.""""

Oh ,no ,no ,no.
We need a verse that SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT.
(SINCE YOU MADE IT UP IN YOUR MIND.)

Ha. If you can't connect very large dots then you have a vision problem.

And you don't even have dots to connect. All you have are parables that YOU cannot interpret since only Jesus interprets His own parables, which even His own disciples needed to have explained to them, and of course your highly subjective presumptions.

But you have no verse that has Jesus taking any glorified believer to heaven.

One resurrection for the saved.
Occurs "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
Proven by Rev 20:5 where the resurrection of Trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection, because the second resurrection is for the unsaved, from Act 24:15.

My "dots" (facts)are very easy to see and connect.

You have no dots at all.

And that's the FACT.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Shouldn’t the 144,000 be the first fruits? Then the “Great Multitude” that follow them? You know, this may be a fulfillment of Zech. 8:23, that ten Gentiles would grasp the sleeves of one Jew begging to go with him, for they have heard that God is with him!

Look, if there’s only one resurrection, then 11:11-12 is the only record of resurrection in the entire Revelation. Whoever the Two Witnesses are, I think it’s not too far fetched to say that they are the Moses and Aaron at the end times, and they could represent the 144,000 and the Great Multitude, since they were mentioned in the 6th seal corresponding to the 6th trumpet. If they are raised, then maybe so will their followers.