The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

PLEASE EXPOUND ON WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO AVOID CONFUSION
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY 2 COMINGS IN MATTHEW 24?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY A MODEL THAT PLACES THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISING AT THE WHITE HORSES COMING TO EARTH THAT MAKES 1 Thessalonians 4 A lie ?
What do you mean that I have the dead in Christ rising after the gathering of Rev 14…during the GT. ?
Do you believe the Bible says THE GREAT TRIBULATION . I don’t see it in the authorized version . I see a reference to great tribulation. Anyway clarity before attempting to rightly divide the word as to what we are talking about will avoid a lot of unnecessary rabbit trails and frankly a lot of work. You may as well just state your views on the event before we agree or disagree on the context of scripture ?

Well, the reason I say "the Great Tribulation" is to designate that it is the only Great Tribulation that is talked about in Matthew 24. (Or the bible).
There is also a reference in Revelation about six or seven chapters in that shows and innumerable group that came out of the Great Tribulation.
Some of the phrases Are kinda for reference purposes.
Some take issue to the word "rapture", saying it's not found in the Bible, and I about halfway agree with them, but it's a lot easier to type then trying to say "the catching away by the Lord of the bride into the air." Even the word "pre-tribulation" has changed in meaning. We now see prewrath and pre-trib meaning two different things. Which leads us into some side debate on whether or not the Four Horsemen are just a cakewalk or if it's the wrath of God.
So yes the terminology is quite muddled.
The reason for myself being a pretribber ,as well as most pretribbers, is the multitude of versus that point directly to a pre-trib rapture, that remain unanswered ,after 40 Years of debate. If that doesn't produce red flags, on top of changing the Book of Revelation, then I would say there's no fear of God.
Now concerning "two comings" in Matthew 24 .
I can easily point you to them. Everybody sees the first one where it specifically says after the tribulation of those days there is a gathering in heaven by angels, (we will note not by Jesus), and that Gathering is in heaven not earth.
So right away we see that is not the Rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4.

Okay now for the second coming that we see in Matthew 24 if you skip down about verse 34 ,or so, (I'm working right now so I don't have my Bible), you will see that Jesus changes the setting to"before the Flood in".
So this is not after the tribulation/ judgment/ Wrath. Now in this setting before the tribulation, it says Jesus is coming, and immediately Jesus declares there will be one there will be two on a roof one will be taken and one left behind there will be two in a bed one will be taken one left behind. Then immediately Jesus declares to watch and be ready.

So that is another thing that I've never seen postribbers explain to me in 40 years.
Now if you want to know why do postribbers have the "dead in Christ " resurrected exactly backwards, look at 1st Thessalonians 4, and directly compare that with Revelation 14: 14.
You will see, that it is impossible for the dead to rise first if they are rising after the Gathering, during the tribulation, in Revelation 14: 14.
So there's way too many anomalies , to have a post-trib Rapture on the table.
But beyond all of that, the single most damaging thing, in my opinion, to suggest Jesus is not coming back pretrib, is the complete lack and omission of the Bride/ groom dynamic in any postribber declaration our teaching of eschatology. It flat out aint there, nor is any of the oretrib rapture verses.

The very heart Of Heaven, the next big event, the apex of the immediate future is the Gathering of the Bride by the groom. The Parting words of Jesus ,the last words of the Bible are;" the spirit and the bride say come, Maranatha, come Lord Jesus"!
you won't see that on the postribber PowerPoints (anywhere!).
Jesus commanded us to pray to escape the tribulation, and you will find that in the seven letters to the seven churches.
Ask yourself, "why would I pray that, knowing that I don't mean it, and disagree with the verses of the pretrib rapture"?

Anyway this ^ is about 1/4 of why i am here, forcing my opponent to go against the bible.

Most of it is an incredible no brainer.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Instead of making stupid and inaccurate claims, just explain HOW you think ch 14 doesn't fit my doctrine.

Well, thank you for the honesty.


No, I think your first statement is all that was necessary. You can't help because you can't show what you keep claiming from Rev 14.


The Bible suits me very well. And I intend to stick with the Bible, and not "claimers" about what the Bible says.

you have never proven anything.

Your entire eschatology is avoiding the verses that obliterate your error.

It could be a manifactoted "obtuseness", playing dumb, or just plain ole invincible ignorance.

But trying to make a legitimate stand on " nowhere does it say 'white bird on the white bird, therefore it cant be a white bird" is beyond goofy.

I take nothing you say seriously.

Because you omit verses when you are backed into a corner, and go on that goofy default mode of " show me believers taken to heaven"


Then you get your nose stuck in rev 14, and.....drum roll please....begin your default mode of OMITTING the no brainer verses that SHOW THEM IN HEAVEN, DURING THE TRIB!!!!!

That, my friend, is invincible ignorance.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Instead of making stupid and inaccurate claims, just explain HOW you think ch 14 doesn't fit my doctrine.

Well, thank you for the honesty.


No, I think your first statement is all that was necessary. You can't help because you can't show what you keep claiming from Rev 14.


The Bible suits me very well. And I intend to stick with the Bible, and not "claimers" about what the Bible says.

And BTW,

IN REV 14, your big claim is that the 144k are standing on mt sion, so it is impossible for them to be in heaven..

Well, let me inform you, (AS I DID PREVIOUSLY BUT Y0U ARE UNTEACHABLE),that there are 2 mt Sion's.
One on earth and another in heaven.

Here ya go, something else to omit;
Heb 12
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


Butcher that one for us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

you have never proven anything.

Rather, you have NEVER proved me wrong. That is a big difference.

I have shown from Scripture that there is just ONE resurrection event for all the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

And you have NEVER even tried to show how they say something other than just one resurrection event.

I have shown from Scripture that ALL believers will be involved at that SAME one-time event. 1 Cor 15:23

I have shown from Scripture that this single one-time event will occur "when He comes" at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.

Your entire eschatology is avoiding the verses that obliterate your error.

You are beyond confused. But you are free to address any or all of the verses above and prove to me that they don't teach a single one-time event of resurrection for all believers, and the event is at the Second Advent.

It could be a manifactoted "obtuseness", playing dumb, or just plain ole invincible ignorance.

The only obtuseness, dumbness and ignorance is done by those who have read the verses above and reject them.

But trying to make a legitimate stand on " nowhere does it say 'white bird on the white bird, therefore it cant be a white bird" is beyond goofy.

So, since you CAN'T prove me wrong, you now are just making up very goofy sentences that have no meaning. No one is talking about white birds.

I take nothing you say seriously.

And you have every right. God has given all mankind the freedom to believe whatever tickles their ears. Or to believe what the Scriptures very plainly state. I know what you have chosen to believe. You've made that perfectly clear.

Because you omit verses when you are backed into a corner, and go on that goofy default mode of " show me believers taken to heaven"

What a goofy claim. I have addressed your verses that you keep lying about and saying that I omit them. It is you who omits/reject/ignores all the verses I have shared that proves there is but a single one-time resurrection of all the saved, which will occur at the Second Advent.

You've done nothing to prove differently.

You just make (up) claims that you cannot prove and don't exist in the Bible.

Then you get your nose stuck in rev 14, and.....drum roll please....begin your default mode of OMITTING the no brainer verses that SHOW THEM IN HEAVEN, DURING THE TRIB!!!!!

That, my friend, is invincible ignorance.

No the real invincible ignorance has been demonstrated by none other than YOU because I already explained ch 14 and proved there is no rapture there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And BTW,

IN REV 14, your big claim is that the 144k are standing on mt sion, so it is impossible for them to be in heaven..

Actually, my really "big claim" is that there is no rapture in ch 14.

Well, let me inform you, (AS I DID PREVIOUSLY BUT Y0U ARE UNTEACHABLE),that there are 2 mt Sion's.
One on earth and another in heaven.

Here ya go, something else to omit;
Heb 12
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

How cute. Why do you think there are 2 mountains, one in heaven and one on earth?

And why do you insist that Rev 14 refers to the one in heaven and the one in Heb 12 refers to one on earth?

By whose authority, or better, where in the Bible can you clearly prove your claim?

Oh right. You don't prove your claims. You don't even try. My bad.

Butcher that one for us.

Cutesy words, for sure. But empty of substance.

Do you know who Henry Morris is? He's very well known in "Creation Research". Anyway, he wrote a very comprehensive commentary on Revelation, called "The Revelation Record". Every verse commented on, some stretching over several pages of comments.

He's a pretribber, so I discount what he says about that, but he clearly believes that Mt Zion in v.1 is a future glimpse of when the Second Advent.

Here is how he describes v.1-

"The most vicious presectutions of the beat and all his forces will be ujable to destroy a single member of the 144K sealed ones, and John sees all of them congregating in a glorious assembly at the end of the great tribulation right on Mt Zion itself."

You are, of course, free to take this or leave it, but Morris carries far more scholarly weight than you do.

But I agree with him about v.1. John was seeing the future, with the 144K assembled and waiting for the King on the mountain.

And here you are, claiming there are 2 Mt Zions, one in heaven and one on earth.

And NO evidence at all to support 2 mountains, OR which is referred to in Rev 14 and which is referred to in Heb 12.

btw, I mentioned back a number of pages that Rev 14:1 was a future vision, before I checked on what Morris said about it.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not forgetting anything. Only the physical body can be said to "sleep". Not the soul/spirit.

Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:

Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord

This is immediate

The word is used literally and figuratively. Jesus used the word figuratively when He spoke about Lazarus being asleep.


Fake news.


That's not what Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6,8.


Huh?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

do you believe these are the 'saints' with no bodies?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Like the angel John was being shown around by? Those under the altar receiving robes? Those who were sown one way are raised in glory? With what body do they rise? NO BODY isn't even a option.

You missed my point again. And again and again and again.

There is absolutely no doubt that in text of the seven letters to seven Churches that faithful believers are guaranteed salvation and robes and thrones and crowns and new name everything else.

I HAVE NEVER MISSED THAT POINT. I have always said that INDIVIDUALS will be judged on their own merits and calling yourself a CHRISTIAN doesn't make you one.

All I am saying is there is NOT A CHANCE on GODS green earth that ANYONE will ESCAPE from the course set before him.

and
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

and


Matthew 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

You can come on in late, BUT NO ONE IS LEAVING EARLY.

and
those who WON'T pick up their cross and follow after him AREN'T WORTHY

and
Those who are SEEKING TO SAVE THEIR LIVES will lose it

and
Kept from the hour is IS TO BE WATCHED OVER, GUARDED, OBSERVED, PRESERVED, KEPT INTACT

and ADDED TO THE WORDS OF GOD ARE "TAKEN OFF THE EARTH AND TRANSPORTED ELSEWHERE" AND BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO THOSE WHO ADD TO THE WORDS OF THE BOOK


5083. téreó ►
Strong's Concordance
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
HELPS Word-studies
5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

and
that NEVER ONE TIME IS THE CHURCH REFERRED to as ELDERS until it becomes NECESSARY FOR A DOCTRINE OF MAN

and

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

THIS VERSE COMES AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


and it is the harpers harping with their harps that sung 'a new song' in heaven
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders:


and only some men on earth that could learn it
and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Dead believers, whose bodies are in the ground (asleep) and whose souls are in heaven with Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

do you believe these are the 'saints' with no bodies?

Since the Bible refers to saints in heaven as "souls" (Rev 6) some scholars make reference to "interim bodies". Frankly I don't care what they are called. I KNOW that when a believer dies, their soul goes to heaven. Unbelievers go to Hades. Both bodies go to the grave.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Of course not. How could they? The souls (very much conscious) of dead believers will come back with Jesus at the Second Advent. Rev 19

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Their bodies, NOT glorified!

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And the living believers receive their glorified bodies "in the twinkling of an eye", per 1 Cor 15:52.

Like the angel John was being shown around by?

They have bodies.

Those under the altar receiving robes?

They are described as "souls".

Those who were sown one way are raised in glory?

That's what the Bible says, in 1 Cor 15.

With what body do they rise? NO BODY isn't even a option.

All believers who are currently 'dead' will rise with a glorified body.

Why you keep harping on your "no body" theory is strange.

and
those who WON'T pick up their cross and follow after him AREN'T WORTHY

Do you believe that salvation will ultimately be based on one's works?

and
Those who are SEEKING TO SAVE THEIR LIVES will lose it

Please explain your take on this.

 

[riverhooks]

Well, the reason I say "the Great Tribulation" is to designate that it is the only Great Tribulation that is talked about in Matthew 24. (Or the bible).
There is also a reference in Revelation about six or seven chapters in that shows and innumerable group that came out of the Great Tribulation.
Some of the phrases Are kinda for reference purposes.
Some take issue to the word "rapture", saying it's not found in the Bible, and I about halfway agree with them, but it's a lot easier to type then trying to say "the catching away by the Lord of the bride into the air." Even the word "pre-tribulation" has changed in meaning. We now see prewrath and pre-trib meaning two different things. Which leads us into some side debate on whether or not the Four Horsemen are just a cakewalk or if it's the wrath of God.
So yes the terminology is quite muddled.
The reason for myself being a pretribber ,as well as most pretribbers, is the multitude of versus that point directly to a pre-trib rapture, that remain unanswered ,after 40 Years of debate. If that doesn't produce red flags, on top of changing the Book of Revelation, then I would say there's no fear of God.
Now concerning "two comings" in Matthew 24 .
I can easily point you to them. Everybody sees the first one where it specifically says after the tribulation of those days there is a gathering in heaven by angels, (we will note not by Jesus), and that Gathering is in heaven not earth.
So right away we see that is not the Rapture of 1st Thessalonians 4.

Okay now for the second coming that we see in Matthew 24 if you skip down about verse 34 ,or so, (I'm working right now so I don't have my Bible), you will see that Jesus changes the setting to"before the Flood in".
So this is not after the tribulation/ judgment/ Wrath. Now in this setting before the tribulation, it says Jesus is coming, and immediately Jesus declares there will be one there will be two on a roof one will be taken and one left behind there will be two in a bed one will be taken one left behind. Then immediately Jesus declares to watch and be ready.

So that is another thing that I've never seen postribbers explain to me in 40 years.
Now if you want to know why do postribbers have the "dead in Christ " resurrected exactly backwards, look at 1st Thessalonians 4, and directly compare that with Revelation 14: 14.
You will see, that it is impossible for the dead to rise first if they are rising after the Gathering, during the tribulation, in Revelation 14: 14.
So there's way too many anomalies , to have a post-trib Rapture on the table.
But beyond all of that, the single most damaging thing, in my opinion, to suggest Jesus is not coming back pretrib, is the complete lack and omission of the Bride/ groom dynamic in any postribber declaration our teaching of eschatology. It flat out aint there, nor is any of the oretrib rapture verses.

The very heart Of Heaven, the next big event, the apex of the immediate future is the Gathering of the Bride by the groom. The Parting words of Jesus ,the last words of the Bible are;" the spirit and the bride say come, Maranatha, come Lord Jesus"!
you won't see that on the postribber PowerPoints (anywhere!).
Jesus commanded us to pray to escape the tribulation, and you will find that in the seven letters to the seven churches.
Ask yourself, "why would I pray that, knowing that I don't mean it, and disagree with the verses of the pretrib rapture"?

Anyway this ^ is about 1/4 of why i am here, forcing my opponent to go against the bible.

Most of it is an incredible no brainer.

Nice to meet you , Absolutely . Now I have this for reference . It is obvious that you love the Lord and His Bible. In a short answer the best I can give you is my Bible Teacher William R. Kimballs book a question of timing. If you send me a mailing address at my email I can drop ship it to you . Free of charge of course. There a few copies left. my email is r.mccaslin@mail.com. I have 7 replies to posts up so I am trying to take the easy way out with my Read the Book answer I am confident of the anointing on this book and its context . If you can wait 40 years I am sure this will answer your questions. Regards, Riverhooks

 

[Stumbling]

 

[Absolutely]

Nice to meet you , Absolutely . Now I have this for reference . It is obvious that you love the Lord and His Bible. In a short answer the best I can give you is my Bible Teacher William R. Kimballs book a question of timing. If you send me a mailing address at my email I can drop ship it to you . Free of charge of course. There a few copies left. my email is r.mccaslin@mail.com. I have 7 replies to posts up so I am trying to take the easy way out with my Read the Book answer I am confident of the anointing on this book and its context . If you can wait 40 years I am sure this will answer your questions. Regards, Riverhooks

Here is a quote from that authors introduction.:

""""We will review the historical origins of pretribulationism and explore the factors, trends, and individuals which influenced its development."""

I can tell you right now the guy is postribber.

Been down that road.

Are you finding something new about that author that is not found in the members here, like "freegrace" and "keronomos"?

Because myself and others have pointed out the erroneous beginnings or the postrib doctrine.

BTW, Those beginnings are NEVER mentioned in ANY Postribber teachings.

Nor are the true pretrib doctrine "beginnings" found in any posribber teachings.

It is a debate steeped in deception.

I will take a guess and venture he uses a combination of one or all of the following

Margaret McDonald

1800's

Darby.

Am i correct?

 

[Absolutely]

about 2/3 Through
" the church is in the air during the 1000 yr reign and satan is bound."

Uh....nope

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry. Only ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23

The single resurrection for ALL the saved will be at the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5

 

[peldom10]

Here is a quote from that authors introduction.:

""""We will review the historical origins of pretribulationism and explore the factors, trends, and individuals which influenced its development."""

I can tell you right now the guy is postribber.

Been down that road.

Are you finding something new about that author that is not found in the members here, like "freegrace" and "keronomos"?

Because myself and others have pointed out the erroneous beginnings or the postrib doctrine.

BTW, Those beginnings are NEVER mentioned in ANY Postribber teachings.

Nor are the true pretrib doctrine "beginnings" found in any posribber teachings.

It is a debate steeped in deception.

I will take a guess and venture he uses a combination of one or all of the following

Margaret McDonald

1800's

Darby.

Am i correct?

You are correct.
Coupled with that..... no mid/post/ etc...tribulation teachings/writings existed before the 1960's that we can find in our search.
A new new age religion approach of changing the Bible in teaching and then publishing bible editions...several..... in attempt to confirm the teaching....also, such editions came into being since the 1960's, it should be noted..

 

[Absolutely]

You are correct.
Coupled with that..... no mid/post/ etc...tribulation teachings/writings existed before the 1960's that we can find in our search.
A new new age religion approach of changing the Bible in teaching and then publishing bible editions...several..... in attempt to confirm the teaching....also, such editions came into being since the 1960's, it should be noted..

Hmmmmm
Interesting

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are correct.
Coupled with that..... no mid/post/ etc...tribulation teachings/writings existed before the 1960's that we can find in our search.
A new new age religion approach of changing the Bible in teaching and then publishing bible editions...several..... in attempt to confirm the teaching....also, such editions came into being since the 1960's, it should be noted..

It is just amazing that anyone would believe in a pretrib rapture since the Bible SAYS NOTHING about such an event. In all the verses where there is resurrection/gathering, there is zero mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

Beyond that, the Bible ALWAYS refers to the resurrection in the singular, for both the saved and the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

The words "a resurrection" say or even suggest "a series of resurrections". No. Only ONE for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Both of these verses clearly indicate a SINGULAR resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

In this verse, we learn that "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, there will be a resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which includes EVERY believer from Adam on.

And notice that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes". That's one event, not a multiple of events, or series, etc.

There are 2 verses that specifically show WHEN that singular resurrection of the saved will occur.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

This is "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. Being "gathered" is the rapture of living believers.

Unless a pretribber can address each and every one of these verses and prove through evidence that these verses don't support a post trib gathering AT the Second Advent, there is no reason to accept a teaching that has NO BASIS in fact.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Runningman got right the rest of you back to school.

I assume you mean Runningman's post at the bottom of Page 1 of this thread.

I addressed the basic point he was making there, in my Post #1486 (pg 75) ( https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4760418 ), as well as in Post #1482 (a longer post) where I'd stated at the bottom of that longer post:

"the day of the Lord does NOT *ARRIVE* at the point in time of His Second Coming (to the earth) Rev19!!"


(it commences PRIOR TO that point, per 1Thess5:1-3 speaking of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus speaking of SAME [/using the same word, in the plural, referring to events that precede and LEAD UP TO His "return" to the earth (in Rev19 / Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:[9],12-13)]).




Looks like it's "back to school" for you. lol







[all kidding aside, it is this MIS-defining of the phrase "the day of the Lord" (and when it ARRIVES) that is at root of much misunderstanding]

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is just amazing that anyone would believe in a pretrib rapture since the Bible SAYS NOTHING about such an event.

Only for those who are WILFULLY BLIND. The Bible says plenty about a Pretribulation Rapture (which has absolutely no connection to the Tribulation).

People who dismiss the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture are basically ignorant about the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture and the purpose of the Tribulation.

All they have to do is study the forcible removal of Lot and his family from Sodom before its divine judgment to see how God removes His people from divine judgments meant for the wicked and the ungodly. And even though Lot is called "righteous" in the Bible, he had deliberately chosen to live in wicked Sodom, and even offered to do something evil when the angels visited him. He was no paragon of virtue (as we see later on), but God saved him because he had been justified by grace through faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It is just amazing that anyone would believe in a pretrib rapture since the Bible SAYS NOTHING about such an event.

Only for those who are WILFULLY BLIND.

Please stop.

The Bible says plenty about a Pretribulation Rapture (which has absolutely no connection to the Tribulation).

Please select from your "plenty" and quote the very best more clear verse/passage that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven then.

That would END all debate.

People who dismiss the Pretribulation Resurrection/Rapture are basically ignorant about the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture and the purpose of the Tribulation.

I've not "dismissed" anything. What is missing from your theology is a verse/passage that clearly shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That's what is missing.

All they have to do is study the forcible removal of Lot and his family from Sodom before its divine judgment to see how God removes His people from divine judgments meant for the wicked and the ungodly.

Forceful?? Really? Where do you get that? I see nothing forceful. I see an OBEDIENT Lot LEAVING S & G voluntarily. His stupid wife looked back and we know how well that went for her.

Do you really think that angels grabbed Lot and family and dragged them out?

And even though Lot is called "righteous" in the Bible, he had deliberately chosen to live in wicked Sodom, and even offered to do something evil when the angels visited him. He was no paragon of virtue (as we see later on), but God saved him because he had been justified by grace through faith.

If you think Lot in ANY WAY proves a pretrib rapture, you've got a lot of problems.

Why can't you just go to the various verses/passages that actually discuss the resurrection of believers? Isn't that WHEN the 'rapture' occurs?

Because NONE of the resurrection verses/passages shows Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.

But if I have just missed or overlooked a verse/passage that actually addresses the resurrection and includes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, please share. I don't want to be wrong any more than you would.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I've not "dismissed" anything. What is missing from your theology is a verse/passage that clearly shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That's what is missing.

John 14:1-3 has already been posted several times. If that is not clear Scripture for believers being taken to Heaven at the Rapture, then you are being wilfully blind. Furthermore the Rapture of Enoch to Heaven gives additional support to this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 14:1-3 has already been posted several times. If that is not clear Scripture for believers being taken to Heaven at the Rapture, then you are being wilfully blind. Furthermore the Rapture of Enoch to Heaven gives additional support to this.

No, there is no "willful blindness" about John 14:1-3. In fact there is NOTHING in those verses about a rapture.

Jesus was assurring His discipes that He would be going to heaven to prepare a place for them. That's eternal security.

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.

2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

v.3 has been willfully misunderstood. Jesus dididn't say anything about giving His disciples glorified bodies there. He said He will come back "and take you to be with Me". That isn't heaven. He didn't even mention heaven.

All He said what that when He would come back, He would take them to be with Him.

In fact, when Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, He will take ALL the believers who are already in heaven with Him, and THAT'S when all believers receive a glorified body.

v.4 is a reference to Jesus going to heaven after His crucifixion. iow, He was going back to His Father, just as He said elsewhere.

John 14:28 - “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

So again, there is nothing in John 14 about taking glorified believers to heaven.

And nothing in the rest of the Bible about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

That would be the ONLY evidence for a pretrib rapture.