Some of the reasons I pulled away from Dispensationalism.

[Runningman]

Background:
Dad was in Bible School when i was born. Glad Tidings was a Assemblies of God school. The blessings of being born into a Christian family I will ever be thankful for. The family lived and breathed Dispensational thinking. Some of my earliest memories are making sure i was right with Jesus because the nation of Israel had formed and it was now about 7 years beyond 1948. So scared i had sinned and would be left, mind you i was 9 -10 . The secret rapture ... if Mom was not home for some reason when school got out the fear of being left behind would hit again time after time... Didn't expect Dad to be home he was a tree faller along with pastoring a small Pentecostal church. The point here is i grew up with a heavy dose of Dispensationalism. Thinking a Scofield Bible was THEE Word of God.

I am not a good writer, struggle with making myself clear. Because of this reply from a fellow poster i will attempt this thread.
Rhomphaeam


I could list a mess of urls, that is not my plan although i will use others notes.

Please lets not go to the yes no yes no postings

You’re referring to dispensational premillennialism and yes it’s heresy created by a man named Darby. Dispensations are a real thing, though, and aren’t related to Darby.

In my opinion even heretics can be right 1% of the time, but often what we find is someone’s reputation precedes them and tarnishes anything good they may have said. Those who associate with them are usually demonized due to guilt by association.

 

[John146]

He did. In Greek and Hebrew. The copies that we have would be considered "preserved by God" in the sense that you seem to be applying to an English translation that relied on these copies to translate to English which would mean those copies are the authority and not the English translation. But you probably knew that.

Let me restate...God has preserved his complete words in an English translation in the King James Bible. There's no need to learn Hebrew or Greek.

 

[John146]

You’re referring to dispensational premillennialism and yes it’s heresy created by a man named Darby. Dispensations are a real thing, though, and aren’t related to Darby.

In my opinion even heretics can be right 1% of the time, but often what we find is someone’s reputation precedes them and tarnishes anything good they may have said. Those who associate with them are usually demonized due to guilt by association.

Where's your ark? Sacrifice any animals lately?

 

[Jocund]

Dispensations is the teaching that God has dispensed His truth to mankind throughout human history, not all at once. What God dispensed to Abraham was not the same as what God had dispensed to Moses, etc...

What God gave to man to be responsible for at any given time in history. Recognizing these different time periods and audience will help us understand what God wants from us today as part of the body of Christ after the cross.

Different missions for different people. I can see that, but even Abraham believed in Christ and saw His day. But what does that have to do with arks and blood sacrifices? The blood sacrifice requirement is fulfilled through Christ. And what does an ark have to do with anything? A specific instruction to Noah to build an ark does not contradict anything else. How is that considered a dispensation?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Referring back to posts # 3&4 ... Do any of you see a difference in the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven? Has anyone search the Scriptures to read about the Kingdom... Does the Bible tell us what His kingdom is? if so where?

There is no difference. Matthew uses "mysteries" in the plural and Mark in the singular. Matthew speak of "the kingdom of heaven" and the corresponding term in Mark is "kingdom of God".

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Mt 13:11)

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (Mk 4:11)

The "mystery of the kingdom of God" runs parallel to the "mystery of iniquity" and in fact exposes the condition of Christendom until the Second Coming of Christ. Thus we have the wheat and the tares, the good fish and the bad fish, the leaven in three measures of meal, the birds of the air settling on the mustard tree, etc. This will all disappear after the Second Coming of Christ, when He will literally destroy all the kingdoms of the world and set up His own eternal Kingdom on earth. Even the thief on the cross saw Christ's future visible Kingdom on earth as a reality since that was prophesied many times in the OT.

The problem arises when people fail to see the various application of the terms. Presently the Kingdom of God is "within you" and in the future the Kingdom of God will be both within people as well as a visible, tangible, physical and spiritual Kingdom. So why did Jesus say that "the kingdom of Heaven is at hand?" There could be two applications: (1) since the King is now present on earth, the Kingdom is where the King is and (2) believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives entrance into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A specific instruction to Noah to build an ark does not contradict anything else. How is that considered a dispensation?

The Noahic Covenant created a dispensation, just like the Abrahamic Covenant created a dispensation, and the Old Covenant created another dispensation, and just like the New Covenant in the blood of Christ created another dispensation. "Dispensation" literally means "administration", and God's administration changed with each covenant. However the basis of justification by grace through faith remained the same from Abel to the present time.

BTW, contrary to Covenant Theology, there was no covenant in Eden. There was simply a stewardship and a commandment. At the same time "the dispensation of the fulness of times" goes well beyond the Kingdom of God on earth, since it encompasses the universe ("all things").

 

[NotmebutHim]

To be honest, I don't understand enough about the concept of dispensationalism to say whether it is (or isn't) a heresy, or whether it lines up with Scripture (or not).

I'm unable to make heads or tails of it at this point. I don't even know if I'm a dispensationalist or not.

 

[Jocund]

The Noahic Covenant created a dispensation, just like the Abrahamic Covenant created a dispensation, and the Old Covenant created another dispensation, and just like the New Covenant in the blood of Christ created another dispensation. "Dispensation" literally means "administration", and God's administration changed with each covenant. However the basis of justification by grace through faith remained the same from Abel to the present time.

BTW, contrary to Covenant Theology, there was no covenant in Eden. There was simply a stewardship and a commandment. At the same time "the dispensation of the fulness of times" goes well beyond the Kingdom of God on earth, since it encompasses the universe ("all things").

Who claimed that there was a covenant in Eden?

 

[Beckie]

There is no difference. Matthew uses "mysteries" in the plural and Mark in the singular. Matthew speak of "the kingdom of heaven" and the corresponding term in Mark is "kingdom of God".

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Mt 13:11)

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (Mk 4:11)

The "mystery of the kingdom of God" runs parallel to the "mystery of iniquity" and in fact exposes the condition of Christendom until the Second Coming of Christ. Thus we have the wheat and the tares, the good fish and the bad fish, the leaven in three measures of meal, the birds of the air settling on the mustard tree, etc. This will all disappear after the Second Coming of Christ, when He will literally destroy all the kingdoms of the world and set up His own eternal Kingdom on earth. Even the thief on the cross saw Christ's future visible Kingdom on earth as a reality since that was prophesied many times in the OT.

The problem arises when people fail to see the various application of the terms. Presently the Kingdom of God is "within you" and in the future the Kingdom of God will be both within people as well as a visible, tangible, physical and spiritual Kingdom. So why did Jesus say that "the kingdom of Heaven is at hand?" There could be two applications: (1) since the King is now present on earth, the Kingdom is where the King is and (2) believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Scripture support for your idea of a tangible Kingdom?
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Jocund]

To be honest, I don't understand enough about the concept of dispensationalism to say whether it is (or isn't) a heresy, or whether it lines up with Scripture (or not).

I'm unable to make heads or tails of it at this point. I don't even know if I'm a dispensationalist or not.

That is a completely rational perspective, and it may be the case that different people have different concepts of what dispensationalism means.

 

[Beckie]

To be honest, I don't understand enough about the concept of dispensationalism to say whether it is (or isn't) a heresy, or whether it lines up with Scripture (or not).

I'm unable to make heads or tails of it at this point. I don't even know if I'm a dispensationalist or not.

Honest answers are the best thanks

 

[Nehemiah6]

You’re referring to dispensational premillennialism and yes it’s heresy created by a man named Darby.

How can it be a "heresy" if it is a Bible doctrine? Calling Premillennialism a heresy is simply propaganda and worse. Throwing in the name "Darby" is sure to win you much applause. But here is the definition of Premillennialism from Theopedia:

"Premillennialism teaches that the Second coming will occur before a literal thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem upon the earth. In the early church, premillennialism was called chiliasm, from the Greek term meaning 1,000, a word used six times in Revelation 20:2-7. This view is most often contrasted with Postmillennialism which sees Christ's return after a golden "millennial age" where Christ rules spiritually from his throne in heaven, and Amillennialism which sees the millennium as a figurative reference to the current church age."

Premillennialism is exactly what we find in Revelation 19 and 20. Revelation 19 reveals the Second Coming of Christ followed by Revelation 20 which reveals a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. So the heresy is to DENY what the Bible affirms.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Scripture support for your idea of a tangible Kingdom?

Why did you skip post #9 which gives you the Scriptures you seek?

 

[Jocund]

How can it be a "heresy" if it is a Bible doctrine? Calling Premillennialism a heresy is simply propaganda and worse. Throwing in the name "Darby" is sure to win you much applause. But here is the definition of Premillennialism from Theopedia:

"Premillennialism teaches that the Second coming will occur before a literal thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem upon the earth. In the early church, premillennialism was called chiliasm, from the Greek term meaning 1,000, a word used six times in Revelation 20:2-7. This view is most often contrasted with Postmillennialism which sees Christ's return after a golden "millennial age" where Christ rules spiritually from his throne in heaven, and Amillennialism which sees the millennium as a figurative reference to the current church age."

Premillennialism is exactly what we find in Revelation 19 and 20. Revelation 19 reveals the Second Coming of Christ followed by Revelation 20 which reveals a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. So the heresy is to DENY what the Bible affirms.

There can be coexisting doctrines which agree with scripture despite disagreeing with each other.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

There can be coexisting doctrines which agree with scripture despite disagreeing with each other.

Just as there are Jews and Gentiles and one new Man in Christ.

 

[Jocund]

There are no "theories" of an earthly Kingdom of God. This truth is embedded in Scripture and is clearly seen in Daniel 7:13,14. Indeed throughout the book of Daniel, and many other prophetic books (including the Torah).

DANIEL 7: CHRIST'S ETERNAL KINGDOM ON EARTH
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him [Christ] dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Now this ties in with the dreams and visions in other parts of Daniel.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR'S DREAM
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the Stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever...

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

So to claim that Christ will NOT set up an earthly Kingdom in the future is not only foolish but unbiblical.

Those passages seem to have a better fit with the Kingdom of New Jerusalem on new earth, rather than on earth which fades away.

 

[Jocund]

Just as there are Jews and Gentiles and one new Man in Christ.

Was Timothy a Jew or Gentile?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Was Timothy a Jew or Gentile?

Im not going to contend with you because what I wrote agreed with what you said.

 

[John146]

Different missions for different people. I can see that, but even Abraham believed in Christ and saw His day. But what does that have to do with arks and blood sacrifices? The blood sacrifice requirement is fulfilled through Christ. And what does an ark have to do with anything? A specific instruction to Noah to build an ark does not contradict anything else. How is that considered a dispensation?

Dispensational truth…God has required different things from man throughout human history. Noah did not believe in the d,b,r of Jesus Christ for sins.

 

[Beckie]

There are no "theories" of an earthly Kingdom of God. This truth is embedded in Scripture and is clearly seen in Daniel 7:13,14. Indeed throughout the book of Daniel, and many other prophetic books (including the Torah).

DANIEL 7: CHRIST'S ETERNAL KINGDOM ON EARTH
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man [Christ] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him [Christ] dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Now this ties in with the dreams and visions in other parts of Daniel.

NEBUCHADNEZZAR'S DREAM
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the Stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever...

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

So to claim that Christ will NOT set up an earthly Kingdom in the future is not only foolish but unbiblical.

Why did you skip post #9 which gives you the Scriptures you seek?

I do not believe what you believe about those passages. You understand them to say what you want them too as do I.