Sorry, is there a text that says Paradise is down, because I've shown you all the texts which plainly and without torturing any words point to it being up.
Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Both are true. It can be the fact that all the souls that are in hell are raised bodily, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire and therefore HELL is cast into the Lake of Fire as a result, or it could also be that on top of this the PLACE called hell that was a holding place for these wicked dead souls is also done away with in some fashion cast into the Lake of Fire.
This is a Biblical view and I am getting it by reading the bible so I don't really care what pagans thought.
Yes. Remember the text about Abrahams Bosom? That is a feast they expected to have in paradise. Read about it any any New Testament Survey book where you learn about the customs and teachings that were popular among the Jews at the time of Christ.
Or you could Google it.
Jesus was telling this Jew something he was familiar with.
So here is something I just Googled.
Some believe that before the coming of Christ, paradise was a compartment in Hades, or the unseen realm of the dead. It was a region of bliss also known as Abraham's side, or bosom. This was a common belief among the Jews in Jesus' day. When the beggar Lazarus died, Jesus said he went to the same place as Abraham.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried (Luke 16:22).
It is argued that these righteous dead went to paradise, not heaven. When Christ ascended into heaven He took paradise, and all the inhabitants, with Him. The verse used to support this view is found in Ephesians.
Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to humanity." (Now this, "He ascended" - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts - the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10).
Bro, are we really going to allow "customs and teachings" to supersede a "thus saith the Lord"?Yes. Remember the text about Abrahams Bosom? That is a feast they expected to have in paradise. Read about it any any New Testament Survey book where you learn about the customs and teachings that were popular among the Jews at the time of Christ.
Or you could Google it.
Jesus was telling this Jew something he was familiar with.
So here is something I just Googled.
Some believe that before the coming of Christ, paradise was a compartment in Hades, or the unseen realm of the dead. It was a region of bliss also known as Abraham's side, or bosom. This was a common belief among the Jews in Jesus' day. When the beggar Lazarus died, Jesus said he went to the same place as Abraham.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried (Luke 16:22).
It is argued that these righteous dead went to paradise, not heaven. When Christ ascended into heaven He took paradise, and all the inhabitants, with Him. The verse used to support this view is found in Ephesians.
Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to humanity." (Now this, "He ascended" - what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts - the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10).
Paradise is UP, not DOWN
That is not a thus saith the Lord. It is your reasoning. I find it faulty.Bro, are we really going to allow "customs and teachings" to supersede a "thus saith the Lord"?
Paradise is UP, not DOWN
I think that one must take into consideration the mindset of the people who were hearing Jesus teach. Knowing that they had the belief that there was a place called paradise for the righteous dead and it was also called Abrahams bosom is important in hermeneutics.
It is called CULTURAL CONTEXT and must be one of the rules used to ascertain the objective "what did the author/speaker intend to say in its original CONTEXT" and "what did the hearers/original readers understand when he said it?"
Cultural Context is huge in hermeneutics. When Jesus mentions paradise to a Jew who had been taught about a place called paradise for the righteous dead that was separated from the Sheol of the wicked dead he knew what Jesus meant. You want to make Jesus mean something else that the Thief had never been taught, but without Jesus explaining something new, then we can assume that Jesus was referring to that same place.
You're a Greek expert who can rewrite all of our Bibles? I don't think you're qualified.
I don't have any hells. God has one that lasts "forever and ever". Jesus said so.
Those whom God burned alive are still burning.
Satan loves it when people reject the "everlasting fire" in the NT!
Maybe it's because that's what Jesus warned us about. Satan wants us to reject the eternal Hell. He wants our company "forever and ever".
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I actually already gave the answer just a few posts back:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-really-good-news.203594/page-73#post-4778200
No, I just believe Jesus. Hell will be filled with unbelievers.
"You're a Greek expert who can rewrite all of our Bibles? I don't think you're qualified."
I didn't rewrite anything. I simply defined the words as scripture gives. Did you see the references?
Even modern English allows that forever and ever doesn't always mean eternity, but can simply mean an unspecified length of time, short or long subjectively.
Like when meeting a friend after a period of time, I can say, I haven't seen you in forever and ever!
Hell will be filled with unbelievers!
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
It’s sad that you don’t have a Bible you can trust. You become your own final authority on the scriptures.
Are you saved? Do you have everlasting life? Is that only for a while and one day you will cease to exist?
It is not a biblical view. Please cite the doctrine that says hell is built on the corpse of the dead or is somehow a figment of a dead persons consciousness (not my doctrine so I am at the loss of wortds). There are those that says there are many versions of hell. The construct and nature of hell is becoming more fantastic as more information is conformed. The flavor of each retelling is pagan, magic mechanisms that require suspension of credibility.
The symbols of the book and the fire are deliberate. Fire burns the book. No more words can be read from the ashes. First death, your name and deeds are remembered. Second death, all is forgotten.
That is such an illogical statement.
Are you denying the verse Rev 20:14? Here is another one.
Rev 22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
“My” reasoning? I’m pretty sure it was Scripture I posted saying Paradise contains the Tree of Life which is through the Gates of Heaven (Revelation 22:24 KJV - forgot that one) which stands above the River of Life which flows from the Throne of God which is in heaven.
Scripture says Paradise is up, not down.