We the new chosen people, are Jews no longer chosen people?
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K
We come back again to the unconditional promises made to Abe. The Bible is clear that God will keep His promise to Israel and He will restore the Jewish people. They will recognize Jesus was the Messiah. And God will keep His promises, either that or God is a liar, and we know that cannot be true.
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Lets suppose you are correct .. Please explain the verses quoted i will post them again
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
I read 5 passages that show conditions. .. Maybe, Mom tells Sally If you clean you room you can use the car. cleaning the room is a condition. Ok Jack be honest and tell the truth then we will go to the game. confessing is a condition Obedience is a condition...
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
I read 5 passages that show conditions. .. Maybe, Mom tells Sally If you clean you room you can use the car. cleaning the room is a condition. Ok Jack be honest and tell the truth then we will go to the game. confessing is a condition Obedience is a condition...
There were no conditions applied to Abraham himself. Only to his descendants. And since God is able to raise up descendants to Abraham out of stones, your argument holds no water.
God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (called "the patriarchs") not only the land of Canaan but "Greater Israel" (from the Nile to the Euphrates). And that too for an "eternal possession". That promise has never been fulfilled, and will only be fulfilled AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, and the conversion of 1/3rd of all the actual Jews (descendants of Jacob) worldwide. Romans 11 gives us a glimpse of that, but there are numerous prophecies relating to this promise.
God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (called "the patriarchs") not only the land of Canaan but "Greater Israel" (from the Nile to the Euphrates). And that too for an "eternal possession". That promise has never been fulfilled, and will only be fulfilled AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, and the conversion of 1/3rd of all the actual Jews (descendants of Jacob) worldwide. Romans 11 gives us a glimpse of that, but there are numerous prophecies relating to this promise.
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Jos 21:42 These cities were every one with their suburbs round about them: thus were all these cities.
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
I think the issue is that you are referring to different covenants? The covenants you refer to obviously required some action (e.g. the Genesis 17 covenant required circumcision). The covenants in Genesis 12 and Genesis 13 did not.
It would be like if mom told Sally she can use the car if she cleaned her room, but she already told Sally that she could go out to the movies. So if Sally doesn't clean her room (conditional covenant) she can't use the car, but her mom had already said she could go to the movies (unconditional covenant).
It would be like if mom told Sally she can use the car if she cleaned her room, but she already told Sally that she could go out to the movies. So if Sally doesn't clean her room (conditional covenant) she can't use the car, but her mom had already said she could go to the movies (unconditional covenant).
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
I do not read this conversation between God and Abraham as 2 or 3 different Covenants. It reads to me like expounding on the one initial ideal.
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
I do not read this conversation between God and Abraham as 2 or 3 different Covenants. It reads to me like expounding on the one initial ideal.
This is probably where the difference/disagreement between the views lies. Because it would be like mom saying to Sally she can use the car, and then telling her later she can only use it if she agrees to get her hair cut.
Sally would rightly be able to say, "you already told me I could use it without conditions".
Sally would rightly be able to say, "you already told me I could use it without conditions".
Here is another reason that to me says a ton .. the subtilness of his words are like those spoken in the garden ;
Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Scofield notes says :
kingdom of God
The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Scofield on Mat_3:2), in five respects:
(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luk_13:28; Luk_13:29; Heb_12:22; Heb_12:23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth (See Scofield on Mat_3:2) 1Co_15:24; 1Co_15:25.
(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth Joh_3:3; Joh_3:5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false. (See Scofield on Mat_13:3) Mat_25:1; Mat_25:11; Mat_25:12
(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Mat_13:24-30; Mat_13:36-43; Mat_13:47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Mat_13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Scofield on Mat_13:33).
(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luk_17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom_14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zec_12:8, note; (N.T.),; Luk_1:31-33; 1Co_15:24, note; Mat_17:2, note.) (See Scofield on Zec_12:8), Luk_1:31-33 (See Scofield on 1Co_15:24; Mat_17:2).
(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1Co_15:24-28 (See Scofield on Mat_3:2).
Should you wish to continue this conversation about my reasons it should be in PM or another thread Thanks for the interest..
Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Scofield notes says :
kingdom of God
The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Scofield on Mat_3:2), in five respects:
(1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luk_13:28; Luk_13:29; Heb_12:22; Heb_12:23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth (See Scofield on Mat_3:2) 1Co_15:24; 1Co_15:25.
(2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth Joh_3:3; Joh_3:5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false. (See Scofield on Mat_13:3) Mat_25:1; Mat_25:11; Mat_25:12
(3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Mat_13:24-30; Mat_13:36-43; Mat_13:47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Mat_13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Scofield on Mat_13:33).
(4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luk_17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Rom_14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zec_12:8, note; (N.T.),; Luk_1:31-33; 1Co_15:24, note; Mat_17:2, note.) (See Scofield on Zec_12:8), Luk_1:31-33 (See Scofield on 1Co_15:24; Mat_17:2).
(5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1Co_15:24-28 (See Scofield on Mat_3:2).
Should you wish to continue this conversation about my reasons it should be in PM or another thread Thanks for the interest..
K
Umm, you called another member out for being rude. You were not given a non answer. I pasted the whole ceremony from the Bible. That was how a covenant was made in the OT. Animals were cut in half and both sides passed through the animals signifying that they would keep the conditions of the covenant. But in Abe's case God put him in a deep sleep and God Himself passed through the animal halves. Read back, I pasted the entire verses. So when only one passed through the animal pieces, that means it was unconditional, that God Himself would keep the covenant with Abe. I have posted this more that once. So it's not a non answer. Unconditional promises.Again, either God keeps His promises or He does not. Anyone who says the covenant was conditional either hasn't read the passage or doesn't understand it. It's as clear as can be.
This was the question
Lets suppose you are correct .. Please explain the verses quoted i will post them again
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
I read 5 passages that show conditions. .. Maybe, Mom tells Sally If you clean you room you can use the car. cleaning the room is a condition. Ok Jack be honest and tell the truth then we will go to the game. confessing is a condition Obedience is a condition...
I asked you to Please explain the verses quoted i will post them again Did you give your explanation of the verses quoted? That only needs a simple yes or no.
In re-reading i see i did not put it in question form i asked for and explanation so will you give your explanation of those verses ? That is a question.
Lets suppose you are correct .. Please explain the verses quoted i will post them again
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
I read 5 passages that show conditions. .. Maybe, Mom tells Sally If you clean you room you can use the car. cleaning the room is a condition. Ok Jack be honest and tell the truth then we will go to the game. confessing is a condition Obedience is a condition...
I asked you to Please explain the verses quoted i will post them again Did you give your explanation of the verses quoted? That only needs a simple yes or no.
In re-reading i see i did not put it in question form i asked for and explanation so will you give your explanation of those verses ? That is a question.
I would like to be able to continue the conversation. On reading the Schofield notes you posted I would want to understand your own reasons for likening his words to an equivalence of the deception that took place in the garden. Thats a very strong position - but you must have your own way of explaining yourself. So a new thread would be valuable I think. To me at least. Thanks.
the scriptures you have do not provide the full context of the Jewish People.
there are what is known as units or episodes of the who bible which show God has never stopped being with the elect " The Jews".
There are many dark ages within the word of God meaning times and seasons when God did not speak to man.
Before understanding that we must see where God worked through man and with man by revelation, relationship, judgment, and restoration & grace and prophecy.
Dark ages through time :
these are all important to see in the context of the Jewish people and how God has brought them through.
Jesus Quoted the book, Isiah, in Luke chapter four starting AT VERSE 18. which was a prophetic word to the Jewish 600 years before the incarnation of Christ:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives" the Jews" were held captive and Occupied by the Romans
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;"the jews" were pressed by the Leader and the Romans
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
all the Prophets spoke to the Jewish of their nation and the coming Messiah.
the Apostles asked this question to Jesus prior to the Lord's ascension in Acts 1:6
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus said:
7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
Jesus never said this would not happen HE said it is not for us to know. BUT what we are to do is preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and receive the power of the Holy Spirit to do so.
Israel Then, today and tomorrow.
there are what is known as units or episodes of the who bible which show God has never stopped being with the elect " The Jews".
There are many dark ages within the word of God meaning times and seasons when God did not speak to man.
Before understanding that we must see where God worked through man and with man by revelation, relationship, judgment, and restoration & grace and prophecy.
- Gods Creation
- God and Adam
- adam to Noah
- Noah to Abraham
- Abraham to Issac
- Issac to Jacob
- Jacob to Joseph
- Joseph to Moses
- Moses to Joshua
- Joshua to the judges
- Judges to the Kings
- King to the prophets
- Prophets to the exile
- Exile & captivity
- Captivity to Christ
Dark ages through time :
- Adam fall to Noah
- Enoch to Abram
- Joseph to Moses
- Malachi to Christ
these are all important to see in the context of the Jewish people and how God has brought them through.
Jesus Quoted the book, Isiah, in Luke chapter four starting AT VERSE 18. which was a prophetic word to the Jewish 600 years before the incarnation of Christ:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives" the Jews" were held captive and Occupied by the Romans
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;"the jews" were pressed by the Leader and the Romans
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
all the Prophets spoke to the Jewish of their nation and the coming Messiah.
the Apostles asked this question to Jesus prior to the Lord's ascension in Acts 1:6
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus said:
7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
Jesus never said this would not happen HE said it is not for us to know. BUT what we are to do is preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and receive the power of the Holy Spirit to do so.
Israel Then, today and tomorrow.
This passage is totally irrelevant to what is being discussed. Joshua did not occupy the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and neither did Solomon.
Furthermore, the Israelites went into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity, but after that Palestine was under foreign rule. And even after the establishment of the nation-state of unbelieving Israel in 1948, the land occupied by Jews was a fraction of what God promised Abraham.
Therefore it is only after the redemption and restoration of the twelve tribes in the future, that the promise to Abraham will be fulfilled for eternity. And all the tribes will be settled according to the prophecy of Ezekiel, with the tribe of Joseph receiving a double portion through Ephraim and Manasseh (as a blessing from Jacob).
Furthermore, the Israelites went into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity, but after that Palestine was under foreign rule. And even after the establishment of the nation-state of unbelieving Israel in 1948, the land occupied by Jews was a fraction of what God promised Abraham.
Therefore it is only after the redemption and restoration of the twelve tribes in the future, that the promise to Abraham will be fulfilled for eternity. And all the tribes will be settled according to the prophecy of Ezekiel, with the tribe of Joseph receiving a double portion through Ephraim and Manasseh (as a blessing from Jacob).
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no that is not true, the context of Isreal today and the jews being the elect of God is well established which is the argument they are not per this thread "We the new chosen people, are Jews no longer chosen people?"
Thw jews are still the elect of God as we see them in the entirely of the bible. As a normative. Yet they can reject Christ and many do and the nation is still protected by God as HIS word says it will be. IF you do not see what I provide as biblical proof or relevant, I leave you to your own understanding. As I said you do not need to agree with what I said or posted. I think others would look at what was provided and come to a different conclusion than you. However, if you disagree with it telling me:
"To post Scriptures in complete context one would have to post the entire Bible in every post. "
you just need to provide your biblical position.
Thw jews are still the elect of God as we see them in the entirely of the bible. As a normative. Yet they can reject Christ and many do and the nation is still protected by God as HIS word says it will be. IF you do not see what I provide as biblical proof or relevant, I leave you to your own understanding. As I said you do not need to agree with what I said or posted. I think others would look at what was provided and come to a different conclusion than you. However, if you disagree with it telling me:
"To post Scriptures in complete context one would have to post the entire Bible in every post. "
you just need to provide your biblical position.