The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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Your previous post said this
"""To you and I someone may be looked at as ...sleeping...but, in reality from the time of death to the resurrection is a split second to the one who is in the grave....no matter how earthly long.
We are reminded there is no time in the spirit world."""
That is soul sleep or basically oblivion.
What are the martyrs under the altar ,doing in heaven, cognizant and talking, and moving around in heaven?
"""To you and I someone may be looked at as ...sleeping...but, in reality from the time of death to the resurrection is a split second to the one who is in the grave....no matter how earthly long.
We are reminded there is no time in the spirit world."""
That is soul sleep or basically oblivion.
What are the martyrs under the altar ,doing in heaven, cognizant and talking, and moving around in heaven?
O
I always understood "under the altar" as being in Paradise which I see as in the earth. Sleep IMO is a body that returns to the earth till the resurrection. Lord says in John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
I see an intermediate state between being in the body of flesh and blood and a spiritual body.
I see an intermediate state between being in the body of flesh and blood and a spiritual body.
They are in heaven.
Moving around.
If you look up "altar", it is in rev several times as being in heaven.
But beyond that, we see a innumerable number before the throne as martyrs and are not under the altar, but in the general population of heaven, indicating the number of martyrs fulfilled during the GT.
Rev6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Moving around.
If you look up "altar", it is in rev several times as being in heaven.
But beyond that, we see a innumerable number before the throne as martyrs and are not under the altar, but in the general population of heaven, indicating the number of martyrs fulfilled during the GT.
Rev6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.
On the contrary, judgement only comes upon heretics/apostates/rebels (unbelievers) who have invaded the Church assembly. Again there is a pattern of singling out INDIVIDUAL guilty parties for judgement...and them ALONE.
On these grounds, I likewise believe that the Church will not suffer God's wrath during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. They will be raptured out of it per Rev 3:10....a guarantee to the FAITHFUL CHURCH.
Rev 2:12-17
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there (singling out the apostates/heretics) those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those (apostates/heretics) who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against ***them***(not believers) with the sword of My mouth.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’ (guarantee of salvation to faithful believers)
Rev 2:18-26
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow***that*** (apostate/heretic) woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave ***her*** time to repent of ***her*** sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast ***her*** into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill ***her*** children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you ***will not*** watch (rebels/heretics/apostates), I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments (faithful believers); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
On the contrary, judgement only comes upon heretics/apostates/rebels (unbelievers) who have invaded the Church assembly. Again there is a pattern of singling out INDIVIDUAL guilty parties for judgement...and them ALONE.
On these grounds, I likewise believe that the Church will not suffer God's wrath during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. They will be raptured out of it per Rev 3:10....a guarantee to the FAITHFUL CHURCH.
Rev 2:12-17
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there (singling out the apostates/heretics) those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those (apostates/heretics) who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against ***them***(not believers) with the sword of My mouth.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’ (guarantee of salvation to faithful believers)
Rev 2:18-26
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow***that*** (apostate/heretic) woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave ***her*** time to repent of ***her*** sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast ***her*** into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill ***her*** children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you ***will not*** watch (rebels/heretics/apostates), I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments (faithful believers); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
FreeGrace2 said:
I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.
No, I don't believe that. When a believer dies, they body goes in a grave. You can call that sleeping, fine. But their soul/spirit goes to heaven, just as Paul described.
Correct. All believers, dead and alive, "when He comes", according to 1 Cor 15:23.
Why not? How do you think Jesus will leave heaven "when He comes"?
I don't have a problem with that chapter. But you sure are obsessed with what you think it means.
I'm tired of your lying assumptions about how I handle Scripture. So how about explaining CLEARLY what I have "reframed" in that chapter, if you are able.
I'll understand if you can't do that.
I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.
No, I don't believe that. When a believer dies, they body goes in a grave. You can call that sleeping, fine. But their soul/spirit goes to heaven, just as Paul described.
Correct. All believers, dead and alive, "when He comes", according to 1 Cor 15:23.
Why not? How do you think Jesus will leave heaven "when He comes"?
I don't have a problem with that chapter. But you sure are obsessed with what you think it means.
I'm tired of your lying assumptions about how I handle Scripture. So how about explaining CLEARLY what I have "reframed" in that chapter, if you are able.
I'll understand if you can't do that.
I'm not forgetting anything. Only the physical body can be said to "sleep". Not the soul/spirit.
Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:
Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord
This is immediate, for those who have trouble with words.
Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:
Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord
This is immediate, for those who have trouble with words.
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FreeGrace2 said:
And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.
Yes, and on Eph 4:8-10
8 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 3:19 - After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
What other explanations have others made regarding these 2 passages?
And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.
Yes, and on Eph 4:8-10
8 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 3:19 - After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
What other explanations have others made regarding these 2 passages?
Me """Unless you like making Rev 14 disappear."""
You """I don't have a problem with that chapter. But you sure are obsessed with what you think it means."""
Me """Which you can not possibly do, just reframe what is forbidden to change."""
You """I'm tired of your lying assumptions about how I handle Scripture. So how about explaining CLEARLY what I have "reframed" in that chapter, if you are able."""
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
You cannot accept what this says because it DOES NOT FIT YOUR DOCTRINE.
You """I don't have a problem with that chapter. But you sure are obsessed with what you think it means."""
Me """Which you can not possibly do, just reframe what is forbidden to change."""
You """I'm tired of your lying assumptions about how I handle Scripture. So how about explaining CLEARLY what I have "reframed" in that chapter, if you are able."""
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
You cannot accept what this says because it DOES NOT FIT YOUR DOCTRINE.
If memory serves, you are one who believes the VIALS all *follow* His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19:11,14,15a,19,21], so that, say, VIAL #6 (re: the river Euphrates being dried up "THAT the way of the kings of the east MIGHT BE PREPARED") takes place AFTER His "RETURN" to the earth, in your view (and, according to your "post-trib" viewpoint, thus also AFTER the "rapture")...
But this does NOT jive with what Matt13 says regarding "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"
--in v.30("let both grown together UNTIL" and [what will be said to the angels/reapers] "collect ye FIRST the TARES"),
--in v.41("and THEY [the angels/reapers] shall gather OUT of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into the FURNACE OF the fire [note: not the LAKE of fire]: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth [corresponding with all other "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages--speaking of the point in time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, NOT the LATER GWTj point in time]");
... oh, but that's right, I recall you have to shift all these Matt13 passages to a different [/incorrect] time-slot, to make your "scheme of things" work... Just like you have to do with the "6th SEAL" ("MOON into BLOOD / became AS BLOOD"--which is "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect of the Trib yrs [i.e. in the FIRST HALF] and your attempting to EQUATE this with "moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" which is "AFTER" the GREAT aspect... that is, AFTER the Trib in its entirety! i.e. at the END of it);
That is NOT at ALL doing what we are called to do: "correctly apportioning the word of truth" (2Tim2:15)... as part of this, the "chronology" issues MATTER! (things which are DESCRIBED *distinctly* are clearly NOT THE SAME!!)
Any viewpoint that finds it necessary to butcher the clear SEQUENCE of the "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" is immediately suspect, as well as those who disregard 1:1's wording of "to SHOW [<--see wording in 4:1 "SHOW"] unto his servants things which must come to pass [1:19c] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (by their incorrectly suggesting that, say, the SEALS [aka "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"] have been being opened ever since the first century. No! [the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is what WILL [FUTURE-LY] "kick off" the DOTL [earthly] TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth [in the "7-yr period LEADINNG UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19])
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