The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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lol. It's not my collar that's too warm. I find the other poster to be a laugh riot, with all his posturing and all.Well, the kjv translates it as "bride," so there's that...
(but like I pointed out... the same Greek word is used in Matt27:19 translated there as "wife"--speaking of Pilate's wife)
I think he was responding specifically to the part where you'd said (in the bold):
Simmer down, fellas
He makes charges against other posters that he himself is very guilty of committing.
Anyone who takes any of this personally shouldn't be here. It's about presenting your best evidence for what you believe. So, you're either got it or you don't. Simple as that. And everyone who reads the thread can make up their own mind.
Of course, people can read the same words and come away with a different understanding. But when a claim is made that cannot be shown from Scripture, that's where the problem is.
Sure, if these were "stand-alone" verses we were talking about... but they aren't.
Here's the verse I'd been looking for to go along with Rev19:6 :
Revelation 11:17 (at the time that the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" takes place--which is WELL-PRIOR-TO the END of the Trib / His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19 [seven VIALS must also come between those points]) -
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm - notice the "aorist indicative" of the verb--the same word we're discussing... but notice the previous verb in this verse ("You have taken [PERFECT indicative]"... meaning, at a point in time PRIOR to this "7th Trumpet" point in the chronology... and I've read that all the rest of the verbs in the sentence thus follow suit).
Do you not agree that the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe [/ 1st Vial]" takes place PRIOR TO His "RETURN" to the earth [which is in Rev19... what we're discussing]? And that Rev11:17 is speaking of something EVEN BEFORE the "7th Trumpet" point in time? (which then would agree with what I'd stated about 19:6)
""""Well, the kjv translates it as "bride," so there's that..""""Well, the kjv translates it as "bride," so there's that...
(but like I pointed out... the same Greek word is used in Matt27:19 translated there as "wife"--speaking of Pilate's wife)
I think he was responding specifically to the part where you'd said (in the bold):
Simmer down, fellas
Rev 19:7
Kjv
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.”
(Used over 200 times in the greek as WIFE.)
Strong's Number G1135 matches the Greek γυνή (gynē),
which occurs 221 times in 200 verses in the TR Greek.
[/QUOTE]
I had to back track and read my post to see what you were saying.
God foreknew all things, did Adam force God to change His plans? Yes, and no. God already knew Adam would fall but God gives us free will, thus God doesn't take our freewill away from us, else God would not be God, if He demanded we follow Him that would not be "God like". So, God gives us freewill or a free choice and many will follow Satan and live with him an eternity. Hell is merely the absence of God in reality. So, did Israel (which seems to be your point) change God's plans, well God plan was to give us humans Free Will. God foreknew Israel would fail but bring forth the Messiah, BUT if Israel had of repented God very may well have brought firth the Kingdom Age in in 70 AD. But, seeing as God foreknew what would happen, He foreknew there would be a Church Age.
Dan. 9:24-27says Israel MUST REPENT before the 70th week can end.
My Blog on this can be seen here....When Disqus closed shop to blogs I moved my blogs to Word Press but I have never tried to promote it, I just use it to back up my blogs.
I am not sure how to link so I will just post it.....
Daniel’s 70 Weeks Decree against Israel
In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.
1. Finish the transgression (Israel's transgression against God must end before the 70th week can end)
2. Make and end of sins (Israel has to stop Willful sin, and only Jesus can bring that to pass)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel has to repent (Zechariah 13:8:9) happens in the 70th week)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Only Jesus can do this, at the end of the 70th week)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy(all prophecy must be zipped up, closed up before this can be fulfilled
6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus must be Anointed King of kings and Lord of lords/Prophecy Fulfilled)
1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.
2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, then “willful sins will end”.
3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.
4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had willful sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.
5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.
6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.
All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, so soon she will need her Messiah's help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.
So, God wanted Adam to never sign right? And God didn't want Satan to sin in his heart and say I am going to be like the most high. But Gid gives us free will. God not only will not (VERY IMPORTANT LESSON TO LEARN) do everything for is as some people think (ever seen those who just well, God's will will be done? Well, God wants us to participate, those who never understand this lead weak prayer lives and never learn how to defeat Satan in full while on this earth)
So, Moses had to hold his staff up else Israel would lose the war, remember that sister? When he got tired Arron and Joshua had to help him hold up the staff so Israel would win the battle. Now did Gd need them to win? Well, no, but God only works through us most of the times, He wants fellowship, He doesn't want us to be a "Computer Program". We have to learn how to hold up our staffs so to speak, we have to learn how t run Satan and his devils out of our lives doing their mischief. When he attacks our kids/families etc. we have all power over him. God answers those prayers of faith, IF we take the time to pray, but He also gives us POWER over Demons,
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
God doesn't want us to ask him to stop Satan per se, He wants us to rebuke Satan ourselves: Hold up that staff !!
ANYTHING? So far not one thing, at least NOT WITH THE WORDS OF GOD. I hear APOSTASY say it, but NEVER GOD.
1. Did the LORD command the Lord to sit at His right hand until all enemies are made his footstool?
2. Is Satan HIS enemy?
3. Is Satan made His Footstool previous to the end of the war in heaven, Woe to the earth prophecy?
My Answers
1. YES, THE LORD COMMANDED THE LORD TO SIT....UNTIL SATAN AT HIS FEET - CRYSTAL CLEAR, DIRECT, EASY TO UNDERSTAND
2. YES, SATAN IS THE ENEMY The very first prophecy
3. NO, SATAN AND HIS ANGELS ONLY REIGN ON EARTH FOR ONE HOUR, beginning with DEADLY WOUND HEALED, THE IMAGE set up, up until he stands where he ought not, kills the two witnesses and then after they rise up, the earthquake and with the BRIGHTNESS of CHRISTS coming Satan is destroyed, bound and sealed in pit for 1000 years. The alive and remaining are changed to rule and reign with CHRIST until Satan loosed for a short season, when fire comes from heaven, then GWTJ, NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH.
What are INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIANS (in the messages to the churches) COMMANDED to do in the book of Revelation?
Is there a 'time' element given?
Are there examples given?
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him My new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.
The Apostasy stance IS OVERLOOK, NOT OVERCOME. This time the excuse is 'they are currently OVERCOMING' and 'being persecuted' RELEASING THEMSELVES from what is written to the churches. Nothing will get in the way of them PROCLAIMING THEMSELVES SAVED and being taken to heaven as the BRIDE OF CHRIST for their wedding before death and judgment and yet another point CONTRARY TO WHAT IS WRITTEN, by taking place before becoming the 'perfect man',
BUT WHAT IS WRITTEN, WHAT IS OVERLOOKED?
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2
AND I LOOKED AND BEHOLD A HORSE WHITE AND THE [ONE] SITTING ON IT HAVING A BOW AND WAS GIVEN TO HIM A CROWN AND HE WENT FORTH OVERCOMING AND THAT HE MIGHT CONQUER
5115 toxon
a bow.
From the base of tikto; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric) -- bow.
3528 nikao
to conquer, prevail, overcome, subdue
3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle"
THE VERY FIRST SEAL OPENED TELLS US OF A RIDER WHO HAS A CHEAP SIMPLE BOW THAT HAS TO BE GIVEN A CROWN WHO IS SENT FORTH TO OVERCOME.
EVERY CHRISTIAN IS TOLD TO OVERCOME. AND EVERY CHRISTIAN IS TOLD WHAT IS BEING SENT that needs to be OVERCOME.
THE MESSAGE OF THE FIRST SEAL IS THERE IS A FAKE BEING SENT. REV 6:2
CHRISTS FIRST WARNING? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. MATT 24:
CHRIST RETURN? AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN. 2 THESS 2
CHRIST THE RIGHT HAND UNTIL? AFTER ENEMIES UNDER FOOT
THE ENEMY? THE ONE WHO BRUISED HIS HEEL GEN 3:15
WHEN IS THE ACCUSER CAST OUT? MID TRIB
IS IT WRITTEN? YES
WHAT ELSE IS INTERESTING
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
OF COURSE, NOT EVEN THE SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR ARE EXPECTING A 'CHURCH' RAPTURE AS THEY ARE WAITING UNTIL THE SEASON ENDS AND THEIR BRETHREN TO BE KILLED AND JUDGMENT TO COME UPON THE EARTH.
AGAIN, JUST AS IN EVERY OTHER SINGLE POSSIBLE TIME AND PLACE, NO MENTION OF ANY 'GET OUT OF TRIB FREE' GROUP ANYWHERE.
Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
OVERCOMING AND TO OVERCOME - A DAY OF BATTLE IS COMING - HOW DOES THE LORD WORK?
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE
27 And whosoever DOTH NOT BEAR HIS CROSS AND COME AFTER ME CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
OVERCOMING AND TO OVERCOME - A DAY OF BATTLE IS COMING - HOW DOES THE LORD WORK?
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE
27 And whosoever DOTH NOT BEAR HIS CROSS AND COME AFTER ME CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.
34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Sorry, my bad. I must have been looking at the following page (with the various versions listed) and inadvertently looked at the one ABOVE the kjv instead (or two down from it, not sure) - https://biblehub.com/revelation/19-7.htm
FROM BEGINNING TO END GOD HAS GIVEN US EXAMPLES OF BATTLES
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE
THAT GODS PLAN
FOR THE FINAL BATTLE OF THE AGE
HE WOULD remove all HIS SOLDIERS and leave it mostly 'ONE SIDED'?
Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and He in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.
3 LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!
4 Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.
5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.
7 Send thine hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children;
8 Whose mouth speaketh vanity, AND THEIR RIGHT HAND IF THE RIGHT HAND OF FALSEHOOD
9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.
10 It is he that giveth salvation unto kings: who delivereth David his servant from the hurtful sword.
11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood:
12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
13 That our garners may be full, affording all manner of store: that our sheep may bring forth thousands and ten thousands in our streets:
14 That our oxen may be strong to labour; that there be no breaking in, nor going out; that there be no complaining in our streets.
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE
THAT GODS PLAN
FOR THE FINAL BATTLE OF THE AGE
HE WOULD remove all HIS SOLDIERS and leave it mostly 'ONE SIDED'?
Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and He in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me.
3 LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!
4 Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.
5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.
7 Send thine hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children;
8 Whose mouth speaketh vanity, AND THEIR RIGHT HAND IF THE RIGHT HAND OF FALSEHOOD
9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.
10 It is he that giveth salvation unto kings: who delivereth David his servant from the hurtful sword.
11 Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood:
12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace:
13 That our garners may be full, affording all manner of store: that our sheep may bring forth thousands and ten thousands in our streets:
14 That our oxen may be strong to labour; that there be no breaking in, nor going out; that there be no complaining in our streets.
15 Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD.
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
REV 14 TAKES PLACE ON EARTH
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
59. agorazó
Strong's Concordance
agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase
Original Word: ἀγοράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agorazó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-or-ad'-zo)
Definition: to buy in the marketplace, purchase
Usage: I buy.
HELPS Word-studies
59 agorázō (from 58 /agorá, "the ancient marketplace, town-center") – properly, to make purchases in the marketplace ("agora"), i.e. as ownership transfers from seller to buyer.
59 /agorázō ("acquire by purchasing") stresses transfer – i.e. where something becomes another's belonging (possession). In salvation-contexts, 59 (agorázō) is not redeeming ("buying back"), but rather focuses on how the believer now belongs to the Lord as His unique possession (J. Thayer). Indeed, Christ purchases all the privileges and responsibilities that go with belonging to Him (being in Christ).
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
IS IT A CASUAL THING FOR CHRIST, WHO MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US, TO LEAVE THAT PLACE BEFORE HIS TIME?
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation (NO) or distress (NO) or persecution (NO) or famine (NO) or nakedness (NO) or peril (NO) or sword (NO)?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
if we HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER, THEN HOW AND WHY THE PRE TRIB?
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
if we ARE ALREAD MORE THAN CONQUERORS, THEN WHY THE PRE TRIB AT ALL?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
if 'things to come' have already been taken into account, THEN HOW IS THE PRE TRIB EVEN POSSIBLE?
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
AGAIN, THE PRE TRIB CAUSES US TO CALL INTO QUESTION ALL THINGS LIKE THIS. NOTHING CAN BE AS IT IS WRITTEN IF PRE TRIB WERE TRUE BECAUSE WHAT LOOKS AND READS TO BE ONE THING MAY NOT BE THAT THING AT ALL.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
REV 14 TAKES PLACE ON EARTH
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
59. agorazó
Strong's Concordance
agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase
Original Word: ἀγοράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: agorazó
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-or-ad'-zo)
Definition: to buy in the marketplace, purchase
Usage: I buy.
HELPS Word-studies
59 agorázō (from 58 /agorá, "the ancient marketplace, town-center") – properly, to make purchases in the marketplace ("agora"), i.e. as ownership transfers from seller to buyer.
59 /agorázō ("acquire by purchasing") stresses transfer – i.e. where something becomes another's belonging (possession). In salvation-contexts, 59 (agorázō) is not redeeming ("buying back"), but rather focuses on how the believer now belongs to the Lord as His unique possession (J. Thayer). Indeed, Christ purchases all the privileges and responsibilities that go with belonging to Him (being in Christ).
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
IS IT A CASUAL THING FOR CHRIST, WHO MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US, TO LEAVE THAT PLACE BEFORE HIS TIME?
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation (NO) or distress (NO) or persecution (NO) or famine (NO) or nakedness (NO) or peril (NO) or sword (NO)?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
if we HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER, THEN HOW AND WHY THE PRE TRIB?
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
if we ARE ALREAD MORE THAN CONQUERORS, THEN WHY THE PRE TRIB AT ALL?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
if 'things to come' have already been taken into account, THEN HOW IS THE PRE TRIB EVEN POSSIBLE?
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
AGAIN, THE PRE TRIB CAUSES US TO CALL INTO QUESTION ALL THINGS LIKE THIS. NOTHING CAN BE AS IT IS WRITTEN IF PRE TRIB WERE TRUE BECAUSE WHAT LOOKS AND READS TO BE ONE THING MAY NOT BE THAT THING AT ALL.
Actually, I don't give much thought to all these details, as if they really prove anything. Because the Bible describes events from different perspectives, and doesn't provide ALL the details in ALL the passages.
What I focus on is the overall plan that is very clear in the Bible.
1. There is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23, Acts 24:15
2. ALL believers from all time will participate in that ONE resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The ONE resurrection of all believers occurs "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
That is my starting point. It's biblical all the way. If someone's "details" don't fit this pattern, it is THEY who have a problem, not me.
2198. zaó
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I am going with Becky on the resurrection being from dead to alive SPIRITUALLY, not just physically.
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zaó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzah'-o)
Definition: to live
Usage: I live, am alive.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2198 záō – to live, experience God's gift of life. See 2222 (zōē).
zaó: to live
Original Word: ζάωPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zaó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzah'-o)
Definition: to live
Usage: I live, am alive.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2198 záō – to live, experience God's gift of life. See 2222 (zōē).
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I am going with Becky on the resurrection being from dead to alive SPIRITUALLY, not just physically.
There is the perspective that the (vision of) 144k are succinct but only a segment of the redeemed of the earth (virgin; among men: virgin men) where I read the succinctness as the complete, i.e. full square, none missing; pure (virgin as in olive oil) bride of Christ, no one excluded, not even those of Judah (that believe in Him, of course).
Where does this go?
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
and the tombs were opened and many bodies of the having fallen asleep saints arose
2837. koimaó from NG2749 ►
Strong's Concordance
koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2837: κοιμάω
κοιμάω, κοίμω: passive, present κοιμάομαι. κοιμωμαι; perfect κεκοίμημαι (cf. Winer's Grammar, 274 (257)); 1 aorist ἐκοιμήθην; 1 future κοιμηθήσομαι; (akin to κεῖμαι; Curtius, § 45); to cause to sleep, put to sleep (Homer, et al.); metaphorically, to still, calm, quiet, (Homer, Aeschylus, Plato); passive to sleep, fall asleep: properly, Matthew 28:13; Luke 22:45; John 11:12; Acts 12:6; the Sept. for שָׁכַב. metaphorically, and euphemistically equivalent to to die (cf. English to fall asleep): John 11:11; Acts 7:60; Acts 13:36; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 51 (cf. Winers Grammar, 555 (517); Buttmann, 121 (106) note); 2 Peter 3:4; οἱ κοιμώμενοι, κεκοιμημένοι, κοιμηθέντες, equivalent to the dead: Matthew 27:52; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; with ἐν Χριστῷ added (see ἐν, I. 6 b., p. 211b), 1 Corinthians 15:18; in the same sense Isaiah 14:8; Isaiah 43:17; 1 Kings 11:43; 2 Macc. 12:45; Homer, Iliad 11, 241; Sophocles Electr. 509.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
sleep, fall asleep, die
From keimai; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease -- (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
1453. egeiró ►
Strong's Concordance
egeiró: to waken, to raise up
Original Word: ἐγείρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: egeiró
Phonetic Spelling: (eg-i'-ro)
Definition: to waken, to raise up
Usage: (a) I wake, arouse, (b) I raise up.
awake, lift up, raise up
Probably akin to the base of agora (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. Rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence) -- awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.
2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders,
5286. hupopodion
Strong's Concordance
hupopodion: a footstool
Original Word: ὑποπόδιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hupopodion
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-op-od'-ee-on)
Definition: a footstool
Usage: a footstool.
HELPS Word-studies
5286 hypopódion (literally, "under the feet") – properly, a footstool; (figuratively) "5286 (hypopódion) is a footstool used by a conquering king, to place his foot on the neck of the conquered" (Souter) – i.e. those under his total dominion.
Strong's Concordance
hupopodion: a footstool
Original Word: ὑποπόδιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hupopodion
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-op-od'-ee-on)
Definition: a footstool
Usage: a footstool.
HELPS Word-studies
5286 hypopódion (literally, "under the feet") – properly, a footstool; (figuratively) "5286 (hypopódion) is a footstool used by a conquering king, to place his foot on the neck of the conquered" (Souter) – i.e. those under his total dominion.
4413. prótos
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.
HELPS Word-studies
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").
first, beginning, best, chief
Contracted superlative of pro; foremost (in time, place, order or importance) -- before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.
1. either in time or place, in any succession of things or of persons
Ever pondered on FIRST resurrection being THE BEST kind, OR MOST HOPED to achieve as opposed to specific day?
ALL the 'unsaved' nations who go through the 1000 years coming to the temple to worship,
were not a part of the first resurrection, so they had to have taken part in a first death.
Wouldn't it stand to reason that they 'remain' dead as in 'spiritually dead' until Satan is released and they either choose life or death? Have you considered these before, and if so what did you find?
Pretribber here.
I embrace all overcomer verses.
And BTW, unlike you, I know what an overcomer is.
You do not know what an overcomer is.
"""EVERY CHRISTIAN IS TOLD TO OVERCOME. AND EVERY CHRISTIAN IS TOLD WHAT IS BEING SENT that needs to be OVERCOME. """"
See that quote you made?
You do not know what an overcomer is.
You think , in your mind, an overcomer goes through the trib and somehow that is the only definition of overcomer.
Well you got it wrong
But beyond that, you made a critical mistake.
You OF COURSE, OMITTED this;
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
See that? The remnant of believers, those left behind, which includes postribbers, get their heads chopped off.
POWER given the ac to kill all believers refusing the mark.
Rev12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now have come salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
See those "overcomers"?
THEY DIED. THEY WERE MARTYRS DURING THE TRIB.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him; and he causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause to be killed as many as would not worship the image of the beast.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads,
17 that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast or the number of his name.
See that?
Every humanoid on the planet takes the mark or dies.
Only one group is protected. The Jews.
Maybe now you can understand what is overcome.
....and what an overcomer is
What I focus on is the overall plan that is very clear in the Bible.
1. There is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23, Acts 24:15
2. ALL believers from all time will participate in that ONE resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The ONE resurrection of all believers occurs "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
That is my starting point. It's biblical all the way. If someone's "details" don't fit this pattern, it is THEY who have a problem, not me.
Again, the details vary between passages. What is important is the overall pattern.
And I can prove that they didn't. Because the Bible tells us clearly WHEN believers will be given glorified bodies, in 1 Cor 15:23, which is point 2 of my 3 point overall plan for end times.
If any believer does receive a glorified body before ANY other believer, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true, and therefore is a lie.
I believe 1 Cor 15:23 is true.
We also know from 1 Thess 4 that the dead saints will receive their glorified bodies just before the living believers will.
But it's all at the same event, which is "when He comes", an obvious reference to the Second Advent, which occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
And Rev 20:5 actually describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of the saved.
There can be no doubt about this.
1. There is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23, Acts 24:15
2. ALL believers from all time will participate in that ONE resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The ONE resurrection of all believers occurs "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
That is my starting point. It's biblical all the way. If someone's "details" don't fit this pattern, it is THEY who have a problem, not me.
What are you really asking? I pointed out what the Bible says clearly. That is the pattern of God's plan. The details can be found in a number of different passages, but none of the passages say everything that any other passage says.
Again, the details vary between passages. What is important is the overall pattern.
The only question is whether any of these people who "came out of the graves" received a glorified body.
And I can prove that they didn't. Because the Bible tells us clearly WHEN believers will be given glorified bodies, in 1 Cor 15:23, which is point 2 of my 3 point overall plan for end times.
If any believer does receive a glorified body before ANY other believer, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true, and therefore is a lie.
I believe 1 Cor 15:23 is true.
So? The issue in the ONE resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) is receiving a glorified body.
We also know from 1 Thess 4 that the dead saints will receive their glorified bodies just before the living believers will.
But it's all at the same event, which is "when He comes", an obvious reference to the Second Advent, which occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
And Rev 20:5 actually describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of the saved.
There can be no doubt about this.
- Status