Righteousness consciousness versus sin consciousness

[SophieT]

So the topic of 'sinless perfectionism' was posted a few days back and that thread led to a spinoff of being so sin conscious, there is nothing good to say other than condemnation and judgment. One extreme to another and I don't find either helpful or actually indicative of our walk with Christ.

Are we all just sinners 'saved by grace' or 'Saints' as Paul describes all the people he wrote letters to (save the Galatians who had turned from God's grace and were now professing works) as saints and not sinners. Even to the Galatians, he wrote: 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What is sin-consciousness? A simple explanation is that would entail having a 'sin mindset'. That is, you fret and worry over having sinned and possibly become very judgmental of others you may perceive of not having the same condemnation you live under, because make no mistake, a person living with the idea that God is waiting to let you have it if you do sin, will often be quick to point out sin in others or even perceived sin and how they have disappointed God and so on.

So, the question becomes is that how we are to live? Under condemnation and fear of judgement? Worrying we have upset God and waiting for the next shoe to fall? Remember Adam and Eve? They hid from God when they sinned ... mind you, you cannot hide from God but sin does separate us from God but are we actually separated from God, when, as a believer, we do sin or worse, are somehow caught up in a sin we just do not seem to conquer or stop.

I'm going to leave it here for now cause there is quite a bit to chew on already if anyone cares to do so.

Let's try to be mature and not use scripture as a weapon against people we happen to disagree with. The devil aims enough darts and we should not be doing so to each other. That, is not the point of being able to have access to a Bible.

 

[Gideon300]

So the topic of 'sinless perfectionism' was posted a few days back and that thread led to a spinoff of being so sin conscious, there is nothing good to say other than condemnation and judgment. One extreme to another and I don't find either helpful or actually indicative of our walk with Christ.

Are we all just sinners 'saved by grace' or 'Saints' as Paul describes all the people he wrote letters to (save the Galatians who had turned from God's grace and were now professing works) as saints and not sinners. Even to the Galatians, he wrote: 3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What is sin-consciousness? A simple explanation is that would entail having a 'sin mindset'. That is, you fret and worry over having sinned and possibly become very judgmental of others you may perceive of not having the same condemnation you live under, because make no mistake, a person living with the idea that God is waiting to let you have it if you do sin, will often be quick to point out sin in others or even perceived sin and how they have disappointed God and so on.

So, the question becomes is that how we are to live? Under condemnation and fear of judgement? Worrying we have upset God and waiting for the next shoe to fall? Remember Adam and Eve? They hid from God when they sinned ... mind you, you cannot hide from God but sin does separate us from God but are we actually separated from God, when, as a believer, we do sin or worse, are somehow caught up in a sin we just do not seem to conquer or stop.

I'm going to leave it here for now cause there is quite a bit to chew on already if anyone cares to do so.

Let's try to be mature and not use scripture as a weapon against people we happen to disagree with. The devil aims enough darts and we should not be doing so to each other. That, is not the point of being able to have access to a Bible.

I spent the first ten years or so of my Christian life focused on sin. It was so much a part of me that I did not realise that was the case. After a crisis of faith, I left the denominational scene. They were not helping. I met someone who was leader of a home based fellowship. He was far more focused on the precious blood of Christ for cleansing and the new birth that gives new life. It was most encouraging.

One day it dawned on me that I was not worrying about sin. I was at peace and I was full of joy. Some people see the Christian life as a burden of expectations that you have to drag around until you die. I learned a great deal from the leader. I was associated with him for 30 years, until he passed away about 10 years ago.

Most Christians get it back to front. We are taught that we have to behave correctly, by studying God's word and obeying commandments, in order to be spiritual. What the Bible really says is that we are already spiritual and we need to live in the light of that great truth. We are already forgiven, we are made right with God and we are not the object of God's wrath.

It is not a licence to sin. It is the power not to sin and to live a life that pleases God without striving. Those who are born of God do not want to sin. In order to be born again, a person has to be convicted that they are a sinner. Christians do not need great burdens laid on them and with no help to carry them. They need to know that God has provided a complete salvation, one that does not depend on us, but is already perfect.

I bought a car several years ago. It had many features that I'd never had in a car. It took me quite a while to discover some of the capabilities. The Christian life should be an adventure, a discovery of the blessings that are ours in Christ. This is a lifetime process. God's salvation is so rich and full that our lives are too short to experience it all.

It would have been foolish of me to try and make my old car be like my new car. There are so many differences that it would be impossible. So it is with the Christian life, or should be. Forget the old. Learn to live in the new.

Fretting over what we are or are not in the natural is a waste. We are new creations in Christ. Let's focus on that and learn to live

 

[SophieT]

I spent the first ten years or so of my Christian life focused on sin. It was so much a part of me that I did not realise that was the case. After a crisis of faith, I left the denominational scene. They were not helping. I met someone who was leader of a home based fellowship. He was far more focused on the precious blood of Christ for cleansing and the new birth that gives new life. It was most encouraging.

One day it dawned on me that I was not worrying about sin. I was at peace and I was full of joy. Some people see the Christian life as a burden of expectations that you have to drag around until you die. I learned a great deal from the leader. I was associated with him for 30 years, until he passed away about 10 years ago.

Most Christians get it back to front. We are taught that we have to behave correctly, by studying God's word and obeying commandments, in order to be spiritual. What the Bible really says is that we are already spiritual and we need to live in the light of that great truth. We are already forgiven, we are made right with God and we are not the object of God's wrath.

It is not a licence to sin. It is the power not to sin and to live a life that pleases God without striving. Those who are born of God do not want to sin. In order to be born again, a person has to be convicted that they are a sinner. Christians do not need great burdens laid on them and with no help to carry them. They need to know that God has provided a complete salvation, one that does not depend on us, but is already perfect.

I bought a car several years ago. It had many features that I'd never had in a car. It took me quite a while to discover some of the capabilities. The Christian life should be an adventure, a discovery of the blessings that are ours in Christ. This is a lifetime process. God's salvation is so rich and full that our lives are too short to experience it all.

It would have been foolish of me to try and make my old car be like my new car. There are so many differences that it would be impossible. So it is with the Christian life, or should be. Forget the old. Learn to live in the new.

Fretting over what we are or are not in the natural is a waste. We are new creations in Christ. Let's focus on that and learn to live

to me, this is beautifully expressed and I so appreciate your taking the time to write it

I have some things I want to say but it will have to wait until tomorrow. I pray your post does good to people who need to read those words.

thank you

 

[Gideon300]

to me, this is beautifully expressed and I so appreciate your taking the time to write it

I have some things I want to say but it will have to wait until tomorrow. I pray your post does good to people who need to read those words.

thank you

Too many preachers preach as if Jesus only said that He was the Way and the Truth. Yet the very reason Jesus came was that we might have life. So many problems would evaporate if Christians got a hold on this truth and let the truth get a hold on them.

 

[Blik]

So, the question becomes is that how we are to live? Under condemnation and fear of judgement? Worrying we have upset God and waiting for the next shoe to fall? Remember Adam and Eve? They hid from God when they sinned ... mind you, you cannot hide from God but sin does separate us from God but are we actually separated from God, when, as a believer, we do sin or worse, are somehow caught up in a sin we just do not seem to conquer or stop. .

We are to follow scripture with trust in it. Scripture tells us that when we live as someone who does not want to sin but lives in repentance, then God will forgive that sin we commit even though we did not want to sin. If we fuss and stew about the sin we are forgiven of, then we are not living in faith and trust in God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, the question becomes is that how we are to live?

We are to walk or live "in the Spirit" (by the power of the Holy Spirit).

 

[The_Unnamed_Servent]

So the topic of 'sinless perfectionism' was posted a few days back and that thread led to a spinoff of being so sin conscious, there is nothing good to say other than condemnation and judgment. One extreme to another and I don't find either helpful or actually indicative of our walk with Christ.

I'll try to limit my use of scripture to avoid sparking fires here, but if we are each only proclaiming our own thoughts understandings aren't we just spreading confusion. It's our own individual beliefs that separate us, and understanding the one truth will unite us, well someday anyways...

Are we sinners or saints?

It's my understanding that in the eyes of God born again believers are "saints." He declares us righteous but not by our own means. He sees us this way only because of His presents within us (God the Holy Spirit). But does this make us saints? It's debatable. If 'us' includes Him then yes, but if we are honestly speaking of our own soul as our identity then no. There is nothing good about us.

We still have the freedom of choice but like Gideon300 said His presents in our lives will convict us, and make us want to obey Him. This may make us sin-conscious but aren't we to be separated from the world and reserved for Christ alone? I don't think we are to fret/fight ourselves/others but when God declares "you are to be holy," how do you reconcile that?

If we strive to be good in this sinful world then we are striving to do God's will on earth. Representing Christ as a light to the world and drawing others that He sends us from the darkness. If that means we are to personally struggle and suffer for Christ isn't this how the apostles walked in faith?

I'll stop here, but I have to ask if not for righteousness and spreading knowledge of sin then what does it mean to be a true Christian?

 

[Blik]

Too many preachers preach as if Jesus only said that He was the Way and the Truth. Yet the very reason Jesus came was that we might have life. So many problems would evaporate if Christians got a hold on this truth and let the truth get a hold on them.

Right! To live according to Christ within us is not to sulk and suffer with guilt and punishing ourselves. Through Christ we are forgiven, wiped clean of sin, guilt free to live in joy of the Lord.

Christ frees us of the burden of sin. Even though we cannot achieve righteousness through our works, We can achieve it through Christ. When we truly repent of sin and have faith in what Christ can do about out sin, We can live free and joyfully.

 

[Gardenias]

Do people really dwell on possible sins that MIGHT be committed by themselves?
That would be binding torment, to NOT be able to see yourself worthy of righteousness. He is righteous and as we are in him, we are to be like minded.
We are ONLY made righteous in him not of ourselves and stay in God's grace by living by the standards in the word.

I do think we need to be AWARE of not falling into a snare of satan by also being so heavenly minded that we lack awareness of those around us. We are to help shoulder our brethren in times of low faith.
We are to save some even pullling them from the fire hating the garment scorched.

I do NOT know minds and hearts but I do know struggles are real and most are hard,we can't even begin to know where people are in the Lord or what they silently suffer through.

 

[SophieT]

I'll try to limit my use of scripture to avoid sparking fires here, but if we are each only proclaiming our own thoughts understandings aren't we just spreading confusion. It's our own individual beliefs that separate us, and understanding the one truth will unite us, well someday anyways...

Are we sinners or saints?

It's my understanding that in the eyes of God born again believers are "saints." He declares us righteous but not by our own means. He sees us this way only because of His presents within us (God the Holy Spirit). But does this make us saints? It's debatable. If 'us' includes Him then yes, but if we are honestly speaking of our own soul as our identity then no. There is nothing good about us.

We still have the freedom of choice but like Gideon300 said His presents in our lives will convict us, and make us want to obey Him. This may make us sin-conscious but aren't we to be separated from the world and reserved for Christ alone? I don't think we are to fret/fight ourselves/others but when God declares "you are to be holy," how do you reconcile that?

If we strive to be good in this sinful world then we are striving to do God's will on earth. Representing Christ as a light to the world and drawing others that He sends us from the darkness. If that means we are to personally struggle and suffer for Christ isn't this how the apostles walked in faith?

I'll stop here, but I have to ask if not for righteousness and spreading knowledge of sin then what does it mean to be a true Christian?

I understand what you are saying, following is my perception

well, I don't debate with scripture. I also gave up striving to be good cause even my good is always someone else's bad and Christians are most happy, sadly, when they are criticizing others. we are ALWAYS in Christ in God's eyes...the problem is when we see ourselves without Christ...THAT is when we reflect on sin and the devil is more than happy to dump on us cause we all have plenty of sin without Jesus

spreading knowledge of sin...ummmm....nope

people are generally pretty sin aware and that includes children

Jesus said He had to go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would be given to believers

why was the Holy Spirit? But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere - in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8

the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. our part is to lift up Jesus

 

[Absolutely]

I understand what you are saying, following is my perception

well, I don't debate with scripture. I also gave up striving to be good cause even my good is always someone else's bad and Christians are most happy, sadly, when they are criticizing others. we are ALWAYS in Christ in God's eyes...the problem is when we see ourselves without Christ...THAT is when we reflect on sin and the devil is more than happy to dump on us cause we all have plenty of sin without Jesus

spreading knowledge of sin...ummmm....nope

people are generally pretty sin aware and that includes children

Jesus said He had to go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would be given to believers

why was the Holy Spirit? But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere - in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8

the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. our part is to lift up Jesus

Yes
We repent and move on.

We have benefits.

Those benefits are marvelous.
To walk in freedom is unparalleled to anything of this world.

We enjoy God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit when we are in that " sweet spot" with God.

Full of Joy. Full Of Him. Nothing else matters.

We begin to "enjoy the ride"

 

[SophieT]

I spent the first ten years or so of my Christian life focused on sin. It was so much a part of me that I did not realise that was the case. After a crisis of faith, I left the denominational scene. They were not helping. I met someone who was leader of a home based fellowship. He was far more focused on the precious blood of Christ for cleansing and the new birth that gives new life. It was most encouraging.

One day it dawned on me that I was not worrying about sin. I was at peace and I was full of joy. Some people see the Christian life as a burden of expectations that you have to drag around until you die. I learned a great deal from the leader. I was associated with him for 30 years, until he passed away about 10 years ago.

Most Christians get it back to front. We are taught that we have to behave correctly, by studying God's word and obeying commandments, in order to be spiritual. What the Bible really says is that we are already spiritual and we need to live in the light of that great truth. We are already forgiven, we are made right with God and we are not the object of God's wrath.

It is not a licence to sin. It is the power not to sin and to live a life that pleases God without striving. Those who are born of God do not want to sin. In order to be born again, a person has to be convicted that they are a sinner. Christians do not need great burdens laid on them and with no help to carry them. They need to know that God has provided a complete salvation, one that does not depend on us, but is already perfect.

I bought a car several years ago. It had many features that I'd never had in a car. It took me quite a while to discover some of the capabilities. The Christian life should be an adventure, a discovery of the blessings that are ours in Christ. This is a lifetime process. God's salvation is so rich and full that our lives are too short to experience it all.

It would have been foolish of me to try and make my old car be like my new car. There are so many differences that it would be impossible. So it is with the Christian life, or should be. Forget the old. Learn to live in the new.

Fretting over what we are or are not in the natural is a waste. We are new creations in Christ. Let's focus on that and learn to live

Again, very much appreciated your post

I was saved when I was only 5 years old so my journey has been somewhat different than those that are saved as adults, but I left the church I was brought up in when I was 20 and had attended for 15 years. There are times I wish I had just stayed there...you could say 'ignorance is bliss'.

There was virtually nothing taught about the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit and when I began to be aware of this, is when I began attending a denomination where the emphasis was on 'tongues'. Overemphasized and no discernment tongues and one self made demon chaser let loose to decide who had the demons. It was a bad experience.

I could write a book, but I'll cut it short. It took years until I had the same kind of 'aha' moment and shook off manmade chains that keep a person under control and create the illusion that keeps the structure of the man made church as opposed to the body of Christ...in place.

Instead of dwelling on sin I learned to go right away to our Father because this is relationship. I was very sin conscious because I was brought up that way...by one parent and 'punished' beyond the necessity of whatever it was I had done. I did not feel loved and the exchange for love was performance. My other parent was marginalized by her and downgraded to necessary but not really all that wanted.

So you begin to think of God as a detached deity who expects you to be perfect and will punish you for your offenses. I spent a lot of time with my dad who was forgiving and he taught me that love was not a currency.

And then there were the years I learned to forgive ... from the heart.

Jesus came to show us the heart of God. I think people forget this. Jesus said if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

God is love. we get it so wrong

All that you said : Most Christians get it back to front. We are taught that we have to behave correctly, by studying God's word and obeying commandments, in order to be spiritual. What the Bible really says is that we are already spiritual and we need to live in the light of that great truth. We are already forgiven, we are made right with God and we are not the object of God's wrath.

is exactly so. It is a relief and a life changing acknowledgement of what is actually scriptural truth and sound doctrine

and also as you say, this is not a license to sin.

We are only free in Christ. I think later on I will post what the Bible says about our freedom in Him and how we are to view ourselves and the truth from scripture we need to dwell on rather than the lies that we are mere sinners saved by grace and will barely make to heaven

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Sinning is a part of life whether we like it or not. It's not a goal or a purpose to sin, but it happens. And it happens enough that even Jesus instructed when "Teaching" the Lord's Prayer, which is a [[Daily Prayer]], that we must ask for Forgiveness and to give Forgiveness. God in the flesh knew we are going to sin, that people are going to sin against us, and it is random enough that we should seek Forgiveness of sin DAILY.

Which, by the way, the Lord's Prayer refutes such Doctrines as Sinless Perfection, OSAS [in the fact if we don't give Forgiveness to others then the Father won't Forgive us], Ultimate Grace Doctrine, and many more False Doctrines.

 

[SophieT]

Sinning is a part of life whether we like it or not. It's not a goal or a purpose to sin, but it happens. And it happens enough that even Jesus instructed when "Teaching" the Lord's Prayer, which is a [[Daily Prayer]], that we must ask for Forgiveness and to give Forgiveness. God in the flesh knew we are going to sin, that people are going to sin against us, and it is random enough that we should seek Forgiveness of sin DAILY.

Which, by the way, the Lord's Prayer refutes such Doctrines as Sinless Perfection, OSAS [in the fact if we don't give Forgiveness to others then the Father won't Forgive us], Ultimate Grace Doctrine, and many more False Doctrines.

yes, Jesus did say we ask for and grant forgiveness

there are people on this site that say that prayer is not for today because Jesus was under the Old Covenant.

there are people that teach that in quite a few churches these days

I don't pray that daily, but I believe that is the model for our prayers...in short form. Pretty much covers our lives in short

 

[Heaven_Bound]

yes, Jesus did say we ask for and grant forgiveness

there are people on this site that say that prayer is not for today because Jesus was under the Old Covenant.

there are people that teach that in quite a few churches these days

I don't pray that daily, but I believe that is the model for our prayers...in short form. Pretty much covers our lives in short

Amen!

 

[Jocund]

Are we sinners or saints?

Why not both at the same time?

 

[dlw]

I spent the first ten years or so of my Christian life focused on sin. It was so much a part of me that I did not realise that was the case. After a crisis of faith, I left the denominational scene. They were not helping. I met someone who was leader of a home based fellowship. He was far more focused on the precious blood of Christ for cleansing and the new birth that gives new life. It was most encouraging.

One day it dawned on me that I was not worrying about sin. I was at peace and I was full of joy. Some people see the Christian life as a burden of expectations that you have to drag around until you die. I learned a great deal from the leader. I was associated with him for 30 years, until he passed away about 10 years ago.

Most Christians get it back to front. We are taught that we have to behave correctly, by studying God's word and obeying commandments, in order to be spiritual. What the Bible really says is that we are already spiritual and we need to live in the light of that great truth. We are already forgiven, we are made right with God and we are not the object of God's wrath.

It is not a licence to sin. It is the power not to sin and to live a life that pleases God without striving. Those who are born of God do not want to sin. In order to be born again, a person has to be convicted that they are a sinner. Christians do not need great burdens laid on them and with no help to carry them. They need to know that God has provided a complete salvation, one that does not depend on us, but is already perfect.

I bought a car several years ago. It had many features that I'd never had in a car. It took me quite a while to discover some of the capabilities. The Christian life should be an adventure, a discovery of the blessings that are ours in Christ. This is a lifetime process. God's salvation is so rich and full that our lives are too short to experience it all.

It would have been foolish of me to try and make my old car be like my new car. There are so many differences that it would be impossible. So it is with the Christian life, or should be. Forget the old. Learn to live in the new.

Fretting over what we are or are not in the natural is a waste. We are new creations in Christ. Let's focus on that and learn to live

Good post. I do not want to add or take away from it and hope all read and understand what you have wrote.

 

[SophieT]

Why not both at the same time?

if you are both at the same time, then you may want to read on because that is not a descriptive we will find in scripture

 

[SophieT]

II Corinthians 5 gets to the heart of the matter. the last verse in that chapter:

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

that is a far cry from a sinner. it is not OUR righteousness that God sees, but the righteousness of His Son when we become a believer in Jesus

same chapter:

16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

when Paul says he no longer see people according to the flesh, he means he is considering them as does God...a new creation in Christ, covered in the righteousness of Jesus

read the entire chapter of II Corinthians 5 to get an even better picture of what Paul is saying here

this is something a person has to see and grasp for themselves. this is cause for rejoicing in that God now sees us better than most of us see ourselves most of the time. next, we should live that way

 

[SophieT]

what does it mean to be covered with the righteousness of God? this could be a very weighty study, but in very simple terms, to be righteous means to be 'justifiable'.

in other words, God can find no fault in us because His Son fulfilled all the terms of the law and died sinless on our behalf, therefore, we are justified. this is a legal term as much as a spiritual fact. God is holy. All that He does is holy and all that He does is justifiable...meaning He is right in His judgements and never wrong.

so, if you are in Christ, God sees that the terms of His law have all been fulfilled and you are not guilty of trespass or breaking them...the punishment for which is death/separation from God

the righteousness of God is His holiness/perfection...He set the law and the terms for it and they have been met, therefore, that righteousness is now ours as Jesus has met the terms for the fulfillment of that law