Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Feb 7, 2022
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somewhere Jesus said, God of the Living referring to people in the grave.
Yes, living to Him, since He can resurrect anyone He wants.

Notice context of the statement:

Matthew 22:
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said,
“O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him"
(1 Kings 17:21)
why does the Bible so often & ubiquitously speak about the soul as though it is a thing person has?
an entity which exists, has volition and emotion and understanding, and knowledge and capability to trust and understand and take action? why does God describe us as though our soul is an independent construct distinct from ourselves and our bodies?


your understanding of Genesis 2:7 seems awfully contrary to the entire witness of scripture. :unsure:


Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am in trouble;
My eye wastes away with grief,
Yes, my soul and my body!
(Psalm 31:9)
It doesn't, when reading a proper translation, and setting aside the erroneous a priori belief of immortal soul/spirit theology.

1 Kings 17:21- And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

The word "soul" in that text means "life" or "vitality", or "strength of life", even "breath to live", for the child had stopped breathing (vs 17). The child was dead, wasn't breathing, and had no life. The prophet prayed so that the child would come back to life and live again, praying that the child's breath come back and so live.

As for Psalms 31:9 - Have mercy upon me, O Lord, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly.

See also Psalms 44:25; Proverbs 13:25, "soul", "belly" (KJB).

The word "soul" in those contexts refers to their whole person, being, their self, their "life" (see Psalms 31:10). They are a living soul with a belly (even a desire).

Psalms 31:9 refers to a person who is entirely in the process of grief so that their whole person is wasting away, even their "strength" and "bones" (vs 10).

So Psalms 44:25 reveals the person bowed down whose belly of the person is so low it touches the earth.

So Proverbs 13:25 gives a parallel contrast of the righteous who eat properly and they as a whole person is satisfied, while the wicked misuse diet and who cannot get proper nutrients and thus they lack in health.

There is no immortal "soul" in any of those verses, and in fact show the mortality of the "soul" in each. The "soul" hungers, can grieve, waste away in strength and bones, etc.

You have a misunderstanding, because you choose to have one, looking for anything that might possibly give credence to your present erroneous immortal soul/spirit theology.

The boy's breath, and so life, was gone, and the prophet asked God to restore that breath, and thus life, because God simply breathes life back into the still dust, and animates it again.
 
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How does Christ describe it in Luke 16?
I cannot continue with you until we are on the same page regarding Luke 16 and what Jesus was doing.

Do you understand that Luke 16's "rich man" and "Lazarus" is a parable?

If not, that must be agreed upon first.

Also, please don't waste my time with such questions as your last. It is disingenuous and simply baiting, to which I will have no part.
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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I am not sure if there was two natures in Jesus. What other texts are you thinking of brother, friend?
No "texts" in particular; just the knowledge that the hypostatic union is sound doctrine.

I haven't really thought about what scriptures support that doctrine; other than the concept of the virgin birth.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Yes, living to Him, since He can resurrect anyone He wants.

Notice context of the statement:

Matthew 22:
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
The point is: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. " Jesus was speaking in present tense. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in the grave. Thus Jesus refutes soul sleep or the claim that the dead are unconscious at all times.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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I cannot continue with you until we are on the same page regarding Luke 16 and what Jesus was doing.

Do you understand that Luke 16's "rich man" and "Lazarus" is a parable?

If not, that must be agreed upon first.

Also, please don't waste my time with such questions as your last. It is disingenuous and simply baiting, to which I will have no part.
Brother, it does not matter if the text is literal, figurative, a story or parable. It teaches that those in the grave are alive and alert. See Isaiah 14, it is true there too.
 
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Brother, it does not matter if the text is literal, figurative, a story or parable. It teaches that those in the grave are alive and alert. See Isaiah 14, it is true there too.
Actually it does matter. One at a time please. Either Luke 16 or Isaiah 14. Pick one, let's go study.


2Tim 2:11: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:"

Is the old man dead or still conscious and alive, immortal even?

Where is King David (the person, not asking about the body) right now?
 
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The point is: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. " Jesus was speaking in present tense. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were in the grave. Thus Jesus refutes soul sleep or the claim that the dead are unconscious at all times.
No, read the texts again.

John 11:11: "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Actually it does matter. One at a time please. Either Luke 16 or Isaiah 14. Pick one, let's go study.


2Tim 2:11: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:"

Is the old man dead or still conscious and alive, immortal even?

Where is King David (the person, not asking about the body) right now?
Lol
I noticed you are not addressing the " parable" of the rich vs lazareth.

Even if it was a parable the story is the same story
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Lol
I noticed you are not addressing the " parable" of the rich vs lazareth.

Even if it was a parable the story is the same story
I have been addressing it. Did you read my response where I show that the rich man is not a single individual, but represented the nation of Judah?

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...arus-its-really-good-news.203594/post-4768984

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...arus-its-really-good-news.203594/post-4769090

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...arus-its-really-good-news.203594/post-4774183
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Actually it does matter. One at a time please. Either Luke 16 or Isaiah 14. Pick one, let's go study.


2Tim 2:11: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:"

Is the old man dead or still conscious and alive, immortal even?

Where is King David (the person, not asking about the body) right now?
I only have ten mintures before being kicked off for Dinner by my wife.

Do you think Jesus is telling the truth when he tells a parable?
Do you think Jesus is telling the truth when he tells a story?
Do you think Jesus is telling the truth when he speaks literlly?
 

Amanuensis

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Jun 12, 2021
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Brother, it does not matter if the text is literal, figurative, a story or parable. It teaches that those in the grave are alive and alert. See Isaiah 14, it is true there too.
Also the details say... 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, ... This being carried by the angels for one and no angels being involved in the other shows more specific details than what they have answers for and thus details like that are ignored in their allegorical explanations.

If it were a parable the lesson would be that Moses and the Prophets warn of torment awaiting the wicked dead and that if reading them does not produce the faith actions necessary to avoid such a place then experiencing the dramatic confrontation of one risen from the dead to warn them will not produce such faith actions either. Therefore if it were a parable it still teaches about a place of torment awaiting the wicked dead.

However, even though the SDA members here keep insisting that it is a parable, they then explain it as an allegory. Which leads me to conclude either 1) they are grossly ignorant of the difference between parables and allegories in Jewish literature, or 2) They don't care because their dogma must be defended even if it is wrong. Sort of a (I would have to leave the SDA if I changed my view issue, therefore it doesn't matter that a parable is not to be interpreted as an allegory, because facts don't matter here. )
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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No, read the texts again.

John 11:11: "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."
I am speaking the the standpoint of historical theology. With my Jewish background, I know that is exactly what Jesus taught. Anyone who teaches you otherwise is going to hell fire, brother.

"
Acts VII. 35

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made you a ruler and a judge over us? The same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel which appeared to him in the bush.

This is very suitable to the matter in hand. This Moses, he says. This, the man who had been in danger of losing his life; the man who had been set at naught by them; this the man whom they had declined: this same, God having raised up, sent unto them. Whom they refused, saying, Who made you a ruler? just as they themselves (the hearers) said, We have no king, but Cæsar. John 19:15 He here shows also, that what was then done, was done by Christ. The same did God send by the hand of the Angel, who said to him, I am the God of Abraham. This same Moses, he says — and observe how he points to his renown — this same Moses, he says, brought them out, after that he had showed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said to the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like me (v. 36, 37): set at naught like me. Him, likewise, Herod wished to kill, and in Egypt He found preservation just as it was with the former, even when He was a babe, He was aimed at for destruction. This is he, that was in the Church in the wilderness with the Angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. Acts 7:38 Again no mention of temple, none of sacrifice. With the Angel, it says, he received the lively oracles to give unto the fathers. It shows, that he not only wrought miracles, but also gave a law, as Christ did. Just as Christ first works miracles, and then legislates: so did Moses. But they did not hear him, keeping their disobedience, even after the miracles: To whom, he says, our fathers would not obey: Acts 7:39 after the wonders done in those forty years. And not only so, but just the contrary: but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt. Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us; for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the Prophets, O you house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, you took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which you made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. (v. 40, 43.) The expression, gave them up, means, He suffered. Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion he had seen. Acts 7:44 Even when there was a Tabernacle, yet there were no sacrifices. Did ye offer unto Me slain beasts and sacrifices? Amos 5:25 There was the tabernacle of witness, and yet it profited them nothing, but they were consumed. But neither before, nor afterwards, did the miracles profit them anything. Which also, our fathers that came after brought in. Do you see, how the holy place is there wherever God may be? For to this end also he says, in the wilderness, to compare place with place. Then the benefit (conferred upon them): And our fathers that came after brought it in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; who found favor before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. (v. 45, 46.) David desired to find favor: and he built not, he, the wonderful, the great; but the castaway, Solomon. But Solomon, it says, built Him a house. Howbeit the Most High dwells not in (places) made with hands. Acts 7:47-50 This was shown indeed already by what had been before said: but it is shown also by the voice of a prophet; What house will you build for Me? Says the Lord God. As says the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will you build for me? Says the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Isaiah 66:1-2

"https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210117.htm
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Jesus' humanity and His Deity was intertwined in His soul; and it was His Divine Human Soul that was offered up as an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10).
Why do you keep up this idea that the "Soul" is merely a component of man, and not what it actually is: the WHOLE person?

A "Soul" is the "whole" comprised of its "parts", the "Body" and the "Breath aka Spirit of Life", according to Genesis 2:7 KJV. Yes, the word "soul" can also mean "life", but "life" is still comprised of the Body and the Breath of Life. That's why the word "soul" refers to those of the animal kingdom, not just humans, as when the sea is turned to blood and "every living soul in the sea died."

Friend, the idea that the "Soul" is merely a component of man, or is some "inner entity" of man which flies off autonomously after death comes from PAGANISM. I tell you this not to be argumentative, but that you might understand the truth....because truth is sent not to embarrass, but to shield us from danger.

If we know that the "Soul" ceases to exist once the Breath returns to God and the Body to dust (for how can it continue if it only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life?), then if apparitions of dearly departed loved ones or saints come, we will automatically know they are demonic deceptions sent to deceive. If we believe erroneously that the dead are indeed dead...but not surely... as the Serpent told Eve, then we open ourselves up to demonic deception when the "spirits of devils working miracles go forth the decieve the whole world", right or wrong?
 
Aug 3, 2019
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They misunderstand the phrase "spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) and they mentally think 'spirit body' which is a contradiction in terms (Luke 24:39; John 3:6), an immortal, incorporeal gaseous entity of mystical aether.

The "spiritual body" of 1 Cor. 15:44, is the resurrected and glorified physical body of flesh and bones ("it is raised"), as Jesus has (Philippians 3:21), under the control of (subjected to; Romans 6:16) the Holy Spirit. This can somewhat be experienced now (Romans 8:1,5,13; Galatians 5:16) as well though before resurrection and/or translation we still have the fallen flesh nature to bring under control (1 Cor. 9:27).
Amen, of course we can't twist Paul's use of "spiritual body" out of context to mean something which is other than the flesh and bone resurrection body at the end of time. For Christians, the following applies:

"Carnal body" now and the "Spiritual body" then at the coming of Jesus.
"Perishing body" now and the "Resurrection body" at the coming of Jesus.
"Mortal body" now and the "Immortal body" then at the coming of Jesus.
"Earthly tabernacle" now and "building of God" then at the coming of Jesus.
"Corruptible body" now and the "Incorruptible body" then at the coming of Jesus.

There's simply nothing in Scripture that speaks of a non-flesh and bone "spiritual body" we take to heaven with us immediately at death.