Definitely from the Bible - that is the most important, fundamental message, of the Bible and upon which all else has been built, which is that Christ is the Savior, we are not. Everything pertaining to salvation must be/have been given by Him
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Definitely from the Bible - that is the most important, fundamental message, of the Bible and upon which all else has been built, which is that Christ is the Savior, we are not. Everything pertaining to salvation must be/have been given by Him
FreeGrace2 said:
What you fail to grasp is that v.14 teaches that unbeliever cannot understand "the deep things of God" (v.10). And Paul was clear in v.6 to whom he was writing; to the spiritually MATURE.
What you fail to grasp is that v.14 teaches that unbeliever cannot understand "the deep things of God" (v.10). And Paul was clear in v.6 to whom he was writing; to the spiritually MATURE.
Basically you are admitting that you have NOT read the chapter. You need to read it before you make such embarrassing statements.
Again, the "things of God" are the "deep things". Even baby believers can't understand the deep things of God. Heb 5. So they still need milk and not solid food.
You still don't know what you are talking about. Please read the whole chapter before making these kinds of mistakes.
That is my answer - from the Holy Spirit. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and believe?
Here is what God tells us about the state of heart of natural man. To believe from the heart, the heart must first be changed, but a heart cannot change itself. God alone must do that. Question answered!
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
FreeGrace2 said:
Where do you get your ideas? Certainly not the Bible, or you would have already fed them to us.
Where do you get your ideas? Certainly not the Bible, or you would have already fed them to us.
NOT.
FreeGrace2 said:
Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.
Where does your belief come from?
See? You don't really believe Rom 10:10 since it doesn't include the Holy Spirit.
You keep quoting verses that don't even relate to the discussion. Showing that you don't have any evidence for your claims.
Ro 10:10 SAYS that man believes from the heart. That is where we believe from.
Where does your belief come from?
Why can't you provide any verse that supports your answer?
Because there are NO verses that say what you claim.
No, not really. Unless you can quote a verse that says what you claim here, that "to believe from the heart, the heart must first be changed".
See? You don't really believe Rom 10:10 since it doesn't include the Holy Spirit.
How does this verse support your claim? It doesn't mention anything about believing or the Holy Spirit.
You keep quoting verses that don't even relate to the discussion. Showing that you don't have any evidence for your claims.
FreeGrace2 said:
HA. Believing the gospel is nothing more than accepting the gift. That's how easy it really is.
But calvinists have to muddy the waters and try to make it very difficult.
HA. Believing the gospel is nothing more than accepting the gift. That's how easy it really is.
But calvinists have to muddy the waters and try to make it very difficult.
What question? Please repost the question.
This one
That is my answer - from the Holy Spirit. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and believe?
Geesh, it describes the state of the heart of natural man, the corrupted heart from which you said that we believe. I was showing you that the heart of natural man cannot believe of itself because is wicked. God must first change it.
[Eze 11:19 KJV] 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
If you believe in election for salvation, then your belief is forced upon you. You didn't choose to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. You didn't choose to love Him. You were forced into it.
Huh? And all of those things you stated, if necessary, would be works that are in opposition to the woks of Saviour that God provided.
Consider there cannot be mercy and grace without election, otherwise it is work.
If you believe anything is needed on your part in order to be saved, then you take away from the offering of Christ.
Adding to the one side, is taking away from the other. Besides, without having a renewed mind and spirit, no one will/can choose the salvation that Christ brought to fruition - they will choose their own works instead
So, you don't believe that Christ's offering was fully sufficient, in and of itself?
You believe man is a robot incapable of believing? The Lord pre-programed you to believe. That's Calvinism 101.
I DO understand what you believe. And since you don't have any clear verses that support your claims/beliefs, is why I don't believe that you have the truth.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
I understand your position very well. It is my position that you don't understand at all.
FreeGrace2 said:
How does this verse support your claim? It doesn't mention anything about believing or the Holy Spirit.
Are you ever going to address this verse and explain how it DOESN'T refute your ideas?
No verse says that wickedness prevents believing in Christ. In fact, all men are said to be evil, yet the gospel has been offered to everyone. Titus 2:11, another verse that refutes your views.
How does this verse support your claim? It doesn't mention anything about believing or the Holy Spirit.
Please pay attention better than this. I didn't say it. I quote the BIBLE that says it. Rom 10:10.
Are you ever going to address this verse and explain how it DOESN'T refute your ideas?
Yet, you have ZERO verses that support your double claim here.
No verse says that wickedness prevents believing in Christ. In fact, all men are said to be evil, yet the gospel has been offered to everyone. Titus 2:11, another verse that refutes your views.
These verses describe what happens at the new birth. It says nothing about God having to do this before man believes.
Acts 13:48 is a repeated claim, this is an over and over that doesn't support yours.
Romans 1:16, yes to evey one believeth so that those who don't believe it, the wrath of God remains on them, who changed the truth of God into a lie...again, you are trying to reverse what really the scripture is. As if the scripture says in Jude 1:21" ....looking
for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Well, while scripture say it" look and live" yet Calvinism viewpoint is to live and look. Yes, I'll go with the scripture. For Paul, it was his customary to reasoned out of the scripture not against it.
I don't understand what you're saying. A repeated claim? The verse says and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, doesn't it? In your opinion, how should that verse be understood?
and here is another truth from God relating to "the heart of natural man":
Romans 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
And please note in verse 15 ... God does not say these gentiles have the law written in their hearts so we know these are not born again believers.
God says these gentiles have the work of the law written in their hearts ... which is the conscience.
The conscience (the work of the law) is what God has given to every descendant of Adam in order that each person may know right from wrong / good from evil.
.
The work of the law is our natural desire to justify ourselves before God by our own efforts (work) for righteousness.
Are you saying you err not knowing the scripture? Or art thou a master...and knowest not these things ? John 3:10. Anyway, these have been tackled many times in this thread if not in the other of the same or like thread. Well, "ordained" has the primary meaning of put in order, to arrange, or to prepare. This is not what Calvinist favourites as foreordained, preordained, predetermined, or predestine be understood in this passage. The verse is not about pre, afore, fore, before but this is after. Unfortunate thing for Calvinist is that the passage does not say anything "who" ordained these Gentiles to eternal life. Yes, God may ordained, yet, man may ordain or both. If Gentiles corporately appointed, then, this may still accepted since, this has been a prophesied plan from Isah. 49:6, but since, this does not say who it was that ordained the Gentiles to eternal life might well have been prepared, established or arranged to eternal life by those who preached to them, who the believed. Acts 13:48 is not a hint of any predetermined, individual salvation decided to eternity.