Major doctrinal errors found in Amillennialism.

[ewq1938]

The born again are hated for reigning with Christ in love and mercy,

The born again don't reign until the second coming is finished according to the end of Revelation 2, and 20. They will be hated in the Great Tribulation for just being Christians.

 

[ewq1938]

No there isn't

The bible says there are:

Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.

Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.


The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.




Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"



What we learn from both verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.



We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Based on the other scriptures that speak of two resurrections we know Luke is not saying the just and unjust resurrect at the same time but just that both groups will experience a resurrection.



This is Premill through and through.

Amill errs on the first two passages because it ignores the information in Revelation 20 about the time inbetween and wrongly interprets that the saved and unsaved are resurrected and judged at the same time on the same day which simply isn't the case. This is why one needs to involve all passages that deal with the resurrections and judgments rather than focusing on some and not others, namely information found in Revelation. During the canonization process it was an Amill that did not want Revelation to be canonized. Revelation supports the Premill type of view so it's no surprise there was an effort to deny it's canonization.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

If authentic Jews are still possible today, what did JESUS Fulfill? Premillennialism isn't a thing anymore. The Kingdom is NOW.

 

[Gardenias]

Definition
Amillennalism is the DENIAL that an earthly millennium of universal RIGHTEOUSNESS and PEACE will either precede or follow the second advent of Jesus Christ. Circa 1936, term first used.

Premillennialism is the view that Christ's return will usher in a future millennium of Messianic rule mentioned in Revelations.......first know use of term 1848

Postmillennialism is the theological doctrine that the second coming will occur after the millennium,1879. Year term first used.

Millennium is a period of a thousand years.

Protestant Reformation a religious reform movement in the 1500's where religious groups separated from the Roman Catholic Church.

M. Luther 1517
John Calvin 1541

[Political, economics,social,and religious background were the major causes of the protestant reformation.]1517-1555

 

[pittsburghjoe]

You ignore that the 69th Week was already used making the “cut off” in the middle of the 70th …meaning you don’t have a full week to stick on the end of time.

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

JESUS is The Prince that allowed The City to be destroyed.

Isaiah 53:7-10
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Journeyman]

The born again don't reign until the second coming is finished according to the end of Revelation 2, and 20. They will be hated in the Great Tribulation for just being Christians.

Yes and two things that should be recognized when interpreting the unveiling of Jesus Christ are,

1) the rod of iron is the word he spoke and
2) he gave believers power over all enemies before he ascended to heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes and two things that should be recognized when interpreting the unveiling of Jesus Christ are,

1) the rod of iron is the word he spoke and
2) he gave believers power over all enemies before he ascended to heaven.

The rule over the nations is a future event that doesn't start until after Christ has returned. No Christian is ruling over any of the nations currently.

We are obviously in a time period before the Great Tribulation starts. We aren't living in the Millennium right now. Amillennialism is a Catholic invention.

 

[Journeyman]

The rule over the nations is a future event that doesn't start until after Christ has returned. No Christian is ruling over any of the nations currently.

We are obviously in a time period before the Great Tribulation starts. We aren't living in the Millennium right now. Amillennialism is a Catholic invention.

Since the return of of Lord sets the heavens and earth ablaze destroying the ungodly, 1000 years later as man measures time ruling over any unsaved person is a contradiction.

There is no greater tribulation than what our Savior faced and he said his followers would face it also.

Look at Rev.7. From vss. 1-8, the Jewish believers in Jesus are protected before any harm comes.

From vss. 7-14, the gentile believers are seen redeemed. They were saved by the Jewish believers who preached the gospel.

Look,

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in hist emple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev.7:15

That's what's going on now.

Compare,

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev.7:16-17

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Jn.4:14

Many things written in the Book of the revealing of Christ are current realities. I'm sure the difficulty of perceiving them is because God sees differently than sinners.

 

[Jocund]

The bible says there are:

Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)

This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.

This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.

Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.


The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.




Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"



What we learn from both verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.



We also see here that the saved/righteous are resurrected first, and at some time later the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

What these verses do not tell us is how much time is inbetween the two. For that we have to go to Revelation 20 where Christ tells John there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". There we have the dead separated into two groups. One who are saved and will be resurrected and judged first, like Dan 12:2 and Joh 5:29 show, and the other group that has to wait until the thousand years are finished before they are resurrected and judged.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Based on the other scriptures that speak of two resurrections we know Luke is not saying the just and unjust resurrect at the same time but just that both groups will experience a resurrection.



This is Premill through and through.

Amill errs on the first two passages because it ignores the information in Revelation 20 about the time inbetween and wrongly interprets that the saved and unsaved are resurrected and judged at the same time on the same day which simply isn't the case. This is why one needs to involve all passages that deal with the resurrections and judgments rather than focusing on some and not others, namely information found in Revelation. During the canonization process it was an Amill that did not want Revelation to be canonized. Revelation supports the Premill type of view so it's no surprise there was an effort to deny it's canonization.

Two resurrections, yes. But is that by instance or by kind? I don't understand how anyone is ruling out the interpretation of resurrection by kinds.

We see in the Gospels that Jesus resurrects saints of old before the crucifixion, and he states that there were those of the that generation of the time that would not taste death. We also see the two witnesses in Revelation die and have the life returned to them. We see Lazarus brought back to life.

It might be the case that "this is the first resurrection" in Revelation is describing resurrections belonging to the first of two kinds as opposed to a first instance of resurrection.

The flow of time in scripture is necessarily convoluted in some cases. The very nature of prophesy requires time to be folded in such a way that the prophet can experience the future in their present experience. Amillenialism seemingly just points to the convoluted nature of time as it applies to prophetic symbolism, and is not really necessarily a conversation about an absolute absence of time.

A strange implication of "resurrection of all righteous" within a first instance, a 1000 years and then "a resurrection of all unrighteous" within a second instance is that if any mortals existed in the 1000 year kingdom, by that interpretation they are necessarily all damned. Is this in line with your interpretation?

What are your thoughts on that?

 

[ewq1938]

Since the return of of Lord sets the heavens and earth ablaze destroying the ungodly, 1000 years later as man measures time ruling over any unsaved person is a contradiction.

That's because the second coming is not when the old heaven and Earth are replaced by the New Heaven and new Earth. That only happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is over, Revelation 20 with the New Heaven and new Earth happening in Revelation 21.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev.7:16-17

That passage is a glimpse of the eternity. That should have been obvious to you:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.

This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This is comparable to this:

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Ok, this is where it gets interesting.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.

So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.

 

[ewq1938]

tribulation
2347

2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}

from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f

AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45

1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

That is God's tribulation and its something to be avoided.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millenium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millenium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

In chapter 21 we have passed the time of judgement are are now being given a glimpse of the eternity in the new age with the new Heaven and the new Earth ages beginning.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

This is why we thirst no more. Christ gives unto us the water of life, and it will quench our thirst forever.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And
let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is something available to those who overcome and are that bride of Christ.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is the tree of life and we shall partake of it's fruits and there will be no hunger. The famine of the end times is for hearing the word of God, but at this time the word of God will be with us forever and we shall never hunger again.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for
the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Amen, let there be light, the light of Christ.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

He shall feed us and give us to drink from the waters of life.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is
with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There shall be no tears or sorrow at that time because they are of the things that are passed away and do not exist anymore. This only exists during the eternity.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all
nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the
Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This also happens in the eternity.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The nations come before throne to honor God and they shall do this to show their love to God.

In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.

 

[ewq1938]

Two resurrections, yes. But is that by instance or by kind? I don't understand how anyone is ruling out the interpretation of resurrection by kinds.

The first resurrection is a group of all the saved dead. They resurrect as immortals.
The second resurrection is for "the rest of the dead" ie: the unsaved dead and they resurrect as mortals.

We see in the Gospels that Jesus resurrects saints of old before the crucifixion, and he states that there were those of the that generation of the time that would not taste death. We also see the two witnesses in Revelation die and have the life returned to them. We see Lazarus brought back to life.

It might be the case that "this is the first resurrection" in Revelation is describing resurrections belonging to the first of two kinds as opposed to a first instance of resurrection.

Well the first resurrection is the first of two so first as in chronology but the first resurrection is also a first as in importance since it is the first time humans will be made immortal.

A strange implication of "resurrection of all righteous" within a first instance, a 1000 years and then "a resurrection of all unrighteous" within a second instance is that if any mortals existed in the 1000 year kingdom, by that interpretation they are necessarily all damned.

That wouldn't make much sense. There are different thoughts on it. We aren't given any details of what happens in the thousand years but Jesus and immortal saints who are priests suggests that the gospel will be shared with them so the possibility of being saved is present. The Greek word for "rule" means to be a shepherd, taking care of a flock and scripture says the nations will be ruled over. There is no better way to take care of people than to share the gospel with them. Oddly, in Amill's version of the thousand years the gospel is also being shared and people are being saved but they protest that the same is happening in Premill's version of it.


Some think they will have children and they are able to be saved or refuse as well. I don't hold that view as I doubt God will also conception during that time but it's only a belief, not backed by scripture for either view.

I also believe lives will be prolonged for the mortal nations based on some language in Daniel 9 about the beasts having their lives prolonged. The beasts are former kingdoms/governments and that's a lot of mortal people.

So, saved people in that time could be changed into immortals like the raptured living and remaining saints were. Being changed alive means you aren't having a resurrection so missing the first resurrection is not an issue since there are two ways to become immortal.

 

[Journeyman]

That's because the second coming is not when the old heaven and Earth are replaced by the New Heaven and new Earth.

Yes it is. 2Thes.1:7-10 and 2Pet.3:7-14 describe the return of our King.

That only happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is over, Revelation 20 with the New Heaven and new Earth happening in Revelation 21.

The GWTJ is the judgment seat of Christ.

That passage is a glimpse of the eternity. That should have been obvious to you:

It's seeing the truth, what has always been true through a glass darkly.

Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.

The purpose of tribulation is to teach us about God. Jesus said,

But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. Jn.15:21

in other words, they're sinning against God.

As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.

This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.

Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This is comparable to this:

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

The point of the Son leaving his throne to come to earth shows us that space and time cannot seperate him from his Father. I think instead of adking when things happen, we should focus on how things happen.

Ok, this is where it gets interesting.

It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.

So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.

I believe the redeemed standing before the Lord in white include OT and NT saints. Tribulation isn't limited to just a few time periods, or massive amounts of people. One saint suffering is tribulation. We all to some degree experience the injustice done to our Lord and his suffering because of it and therefore the longsuffering of God.[/QUOTE]

 

[ewq1938]

12. The dragon (satan) is bound in the pit once he is kicked out of heaven.

Amill sometimes teaches that he is cast into the pit after being kicked out of heaven yet Revelation 12 does not show this at all.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

No being bound and imprisoned in the pit in the passage. No new reduction or restriction placed upon Satan in the slightest in fact he is seen to be more active and more destructive than ever. Not only does he make war against the saints, Revelation 13 shows that he overcomes and kills them! Clearly Satan is not bound and imprisoned after he is kicked out of heaven.

 

[Journeyman]

12. No being bound and imprisoned in the pit in the passage. No new reduction or restriction placed upon Satan in the slightest in fact he is seen to be more active and more destructive than ever.

Maybe the problem of not seeing Satan bound is that he's still making a shambles of your life.

No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. Mk.3:27

It's goid to know that our Savior put the devil where he belongs.

 

[ewq1938]

Maybe the problem of not seeing Satan bound is that he's still making a shambles of your life.

When he is bound and imprisoned, he will be unable to do that to anyone. Because he is active in world and harming people and deceiving them we know he is not bound and imprisoned yet. The world we live in is not how the world will be in the true Millennium with true leadership and rule.

 

[Journeyman]

When he is bound and imprisoned, he will be unable to do that to anyone. Because he is active in world and harming people and deceiving them we know he is not bound and imprisoned yet. The world we live in is not how the world will be in the true Millennium with true leadership and rule.

The King showed the world true leadership and rule and gave authority to us his ambassadors to carry on his reign.
Christianity has become polluted with a worldly view of power, instead of the power of Christ, who defeated all worldly power.
The Bible says people who have faith in Jesus are no longer deceived. The Bible never says all people will have faith in Jesus. It's faith in Jesus that binds Satan.

 

[ewq1938]

It's faith in Jesus that binds Satan.

That's not what the bible says binds satan:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Journeyman]

That's not what the bible says binds satan:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Those are symbols. Our Savior did enough so that the nations (gentiles like me and countless others) would not be deceived anymore.

 

[Chester]

To accept your assertion, we must believe that God is bound by time. That is a lie. Nothing binds God........not even time.

GOD IS!!!!!!

There was never a time when God did not exist, nor will there be a time when He does not.

God created time to govern the Seasons He created, and for mankind. When that last Trump sounds, and Jesus descends to gather Gods children to Him, TIME WILL BE NO MORE!

In heaven, time does not exist. The few passages that refer to "time" in that context are to give mankind some way of understanding what is being said. The most often referred to is:

2 Peter 3:8

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

King James Version (KJV)

(excerpt)

Peter reminds the believers not to lose heart because God is working on a different timetable. For a human being, if something doesn’t happen within a matter of years, then we may miss it. God, however, is not limited by the same constraints of time because “with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.” Time is simply not an issue with God because He has an unlimited amount of it. If the average person sees something in the store, it would make no difference whether it cost a penny or a dime, even though one is ten times more expensive than the other. If a billionaire wanted to buy a piece of property it might make no difference to him whether it cost $50,000 or $500,000 or even $5,000,000. This is the idea of the verse—both a day and a thousand years are such miniscule amounts of time to God that it really makes no difference to Him.

(here)

What does 2 Peter 3:8 mean when it says a thousand …

GOD IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Omnipresent!

Definition of omnipresent

: present in all places at all times

I do not know about the details of this
Amillennialism.

but I do know that your assertion is wrong if you believe time will continue in Eternity as we know it today. TIME WILL BE NEVERMORE! We will never grow old or die, as is necessary IF time exist.........

I agree completely that God is not bound by time. He is omnipresent and exists outside of time as such. But we are not gods, but are humans and will always be humans. Yes, we will have changed bodies like unto his body, but we will not become gods. As such, humans can only live in time. To live outside of time is to be god.

Furthermore as the OP clearly points out there is no clear Scripture that states that time will cease to exist. In fact, it is just the opposite. The setting in heaven in Revelation 21,22 several times refers clearly to their being time in heaven.

Of course time will have a very different feel in heaven than it does here. There will be no such thing as time "pressure". Time will not cause us to grow old, etc.

To take time out of heaven is to make us only disembodied spirits floating in the clouds. But heaven is going to be a real physical place with the tree of life and a river coming from the throne, and on and on and on. Oh, to be home! I can't wait!