Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

According to scripture, it is only by resurrection (or translation without seeing (experiencing) death) and being taken up by Jesus and the angels that one enters Heaven. However, your theology places persons who have died into heaven before the physical resurrection (which is why I stated that your theological position was/is a spiritualization of the old heresy). It is simply the old heresy repackaged, attempting to bypass or circumvent the charge as laid by Paul under inspiration of the Holy Ghost. It is an Ad Hoc position stemming from the original heresy.

wow you are making up all kinds of things about me.
you must be pretty passionate about this topic.

i have said, physical death is not cessation of existence.
that's manifestly clear from Luke 16 - unless you think Jesus is also a teacher of heresy?

life/death is not the same paradigm as existence/non-existence.
do you agree?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

in my perception, you do not know what you are talking about.

Therefore we do not lose heart. ​

Even though our outward man is perishing, ​

yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. ​

(2 Corinthians 4:16)​

The inward man, is the mind, the intelligence or intellectual and emotional, as the Bible throughout connects the words "mind*, "spirit" and "heart". It also is not immortal.

Eccl 9:6: "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

Ps 146:4: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

 

[posthuman]

I did not simply "jump in". I responded directly to your response to my reply. Phoneman777 was not a part of either of our replies to one another.

what i mean is, you joined the forum a week ago. this thread is a conversation that has been going on for a month. you didn't make any kind of introduction of yourself to the forum; you began your sojourn with CC by beginning to take part in this thread, with the air of a teacher.

in that respect, yes, you 'jumped into' a conversation that had gone on 3 weeks before you arrived. so it wasn't clear to me whether you were aware of the history of the conversation. the context of my reply should have clued you in to its intent, i had hoped.

all these post are public. they are even google-searchable. anyone can read them and reply to them. just because you are the one that i quoted when i began to write this post does not mean i do not expect anyone else to read it, and it likewise does not mean i intend my words to be only for your ears. we have a PM system for that

you should kind of expext that when you post something, you post to the entire online world. the entire online world may read it.
bit of a fourth-wall thing, if that makes sense.

sorry for the misunderstanding. i expect phonedude to read whatever posts are posted in this post, in particular the post-posts. he's fond of me, as you may have gathered

 

[posthuman]

Eccl 9:6: "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

which death is that?

is that under the sun or under the Son?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

ah! so which one am i speaking of if i say i will never die?
and which one does Paul write of saying i have died?
and if there is more than one meaning of death, is there also of life?
and which one matters?

A Christian who obtains the prize, shall not die the second death (annihilation).

However, the conversation has not focused so much upon the second death, as that of the first (sleep in grave).

You are free to explain yourself without me playing a guessing game.

Jesus was speaking of the first and second death in the text you cited.

"though he die" - first death (sleep in the grave as His friend Lazarus did).

"believe in me (Jesus) shall never die) - second death (annihilation), which is why Lazarus could be resurrected. He only died the first death unto sleep of the grave.

Paul's "inward man" is not an immortal soul/spirit, but simply the active mind. It can die (as the old man is to be dead), or be alive (conditionally). When Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live", he is referring to the inward man or mind that is only ever conditionally alive.

 

[posthuman]

A Christian who obtains the prize, shall not die the second death (annihilation).

so you do not believe physical death is annihilation?
the way you've been speaking to me you seemed to be taking the tack that Luke 16 is pure mythos.
that's tele-person's position. he believes Christ is using doctrines of demons ((his own words)) in order to teach a moral lesson.
his entire purpose in making this thread was to communicate this perspective of his. a bit of an elephant in the room.

Paul's "inward man" is not an immortal soul/spirit, but simply the active mind. It can die (as the old man is to be dead), or be alive (conditionally). When Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live", he is referring to the inward man or mind that is only ever conditionally alive.

does man even have a soul before the resurrection?
it appears to me you are indicating that the personhood of a person is wholly incoincident to the soul.
that the mind is a mere physical process.
if our thoughts are wholly disconnected from our soul, is it only the physical body that has either belief or unbelief?
because you are saying my conscious activity is all physical - that it isn't my soul at all.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

do you also believe this means Jesus was annihilated for 3 days and 3 nights?

that a freshly created copy of the annihilated soul of Jesus was assigned an identical personhood with the original Jesus who has ceased to exist?

3 days and 3 nights do not merely incorporate the time of Jesus' death and being placed into the tomb. That prophetic period began in the garden of Gethsemane. It is different from the timeframe of Jesus' "three days raise it up" statements.

It is unrelated to our present discussion in most of its aspect. Only part of that timeframe is relevant.

The Son of God as Deity is eternal and cannot be annihilated.

The humanity of the Son of God died (human flesh nature). Neither He nor it was annihilated, as the texts plainly state that it was in the tomb where "the Lord lay", where "he" was buried. Even scripture records that the human body of Jesus (the flesh nature of mankind) did not see (experience) decay, experience corruption.

Jesus was resurrected and glorified.

 

[posthuman]

3 days and 3 nights do not merely incorporate the time of Jesus' death and being placed into the tomb. That prophetic period began in the garden of Gethsemane. It is different from the timeframe of Jesus' "three days raise it up" statements.

It is unrelated to our present discussion in most of its aspect. Only part of that timeframe is relevant.

The Son of God as Deity is eternal and cannot be annihilated.

The humanity of the Son of God died (human flesh nature). Neither He nor it was annihilated, as the texts plainly state that it was in the tomb where "the Lord lay", where "he" was buried. Even scripture records that the human body of Jesus (the flesh nature of mankind) did not see (experience) decay, experience corruption.

Jesus was resurrected and glorified.

hmm you did not answer my question.

was Jesus annihilated and replaced 3 days later with an identical synthetic copy that was assigned the personhood of the Jesus who had ceased to exist?



if you really believe Jesus was annihilated and a synthetic copy of Him was created to be assigned His personhood and filled with His memories, i don't see why you should be ashamed to simply say so.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

hmm you did not answer my question.

Yes, I did. I spake plainly. You have your answer from me as clear as can be made. If you choose to not accept that answer, the answer itself cannot change to suit your incorrect worldview.

If asked again, I will say, "Asked and answered."

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

does man even have a soul before the resurrection?

Mankind does not so much "have a soul" as mankind is a "soul" (person, being creature), see Gen. 2:7.

So, to answer the question properly, would be to say, Yes, mankind (individual man) is a dead soul before resurrection. After resurrection, mandkind (individual man) is a living soul.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

so you do not believe physical death is annihilation?
the way you've been speaking to me you seemed to be taking the tack that Luke 16 is pure mythos.
that's tele-person's position. he believes Christ is using doctrines of demons ((his own words)) in order to teach a moral lesson.
his entire purpose in making this thread was to communicate this perspective of his. a bit of an elephant in the room.




does man even have a soul before the resurrection?
it appears to me you are indicating that the personhood of a person is wholly incoincident to the soul.
that the mind is a mere physical process.
if our thoughts are wholly disconnected from our soul, is it only the physical body that has either belief or unbelief?
because you are saying my conscious activity is all physical - that it isn't my soul at all.

You are misunderstanding me.

Think of it this way.

A B C X V M G R W K

Physical letters written. They have form and shape, but only very little meaning (little meaning comes from their organized shape).

Now:

"This is a sentence with ordered words and letters, which now carry meaning to an English reader."

There is now something beyond mere letters and recognized shapes. It carries meaning and purpose beyond the simple letters and shapes.

The brain is just a fleshy computer, that without the breath of life from God does not function. We are just dust animated by God's breath/spirit of life. So take away the breath of life given from God, or destroy the flesh, dust, and the person is no longer alive, can no longer think just as the Bible says.

So, you or I, as living souls (persons, beings, creatures), are more than dust (more than simply random letters, but are a complete sentence with purpose and meaning, with life, as given by God) we are animated dust by the breath of the living God. Remove the dust, or if God take His breath away He lent to us, we go from living souls to dead souls. Just inactive dust again, until reconstituted or reanimated by God breathing into the dust again, His breath of life.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

which death is that?

is that under the sun or under the Son?

It can apply to the first death (sleep grave) and second death (annihilation).

The text clearly says "sun", however the "sun" is a physical symbol of the "Son", see Malachi 4:2; 2 Peter 1:19, etc.

First the natural then after the spiritual, 1 Cor. 15:46.

Taking the second case, spiritual, it would mean that the selfish life has nothing more to accomplish under the reign of Christ, and all selfishness of the old man of sin is dead even to the heart of desire, proving that immortal soul/spirit theology is grievous error.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

so you do not believe physical death is annihilation?
the way you've been speaking to me you seemed to be taking the tack that Luke 16 is pure mythos.
that's tele-person's position. he believes Christ is using doctrines of demons ((his own words)) in order to teach a moral lesson.
his entire purpose in making this thread was to communicate this perspective of his. a bit of an elephant in the room.




does man even have a soul before the resurrection?
it appears to me you are indicating that the personhood of a person is wholly incoincident to the soul.
that the mind is a mere physical process.
if our thoughts are wholly disconnected from our soul, is it only the physical body that has either belief or unbelief?
because you are saying my conscious activity is all physical - that it isn't my soul at all.

Look carefully at this text:

Heb 4:12: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

It is chiastically sealed or paralleled within itself.

The word "spirit" is defined.

The word "soul" is defined.

Do you see the built in structural definition in the verse. It goes A B A B.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

what i mean is, you joined the forum a week ago. this thread is a conversation that has been going on for a month. ...

True, but I also know how to read before engaging to obtain the lay of the land, the opponents, the allies, the Switzerlanders, the type of weapons deployed, where major or minor skirmishes are, where traps and landmines are, and whether or not there is an eye in the sky about to reign down some tungsten rods.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Nobody teaches what you claim. You are arguing with a phantom teacher, one that you invent and give words to. You're "surely die" argument doesn't apply. Your use of it falls to the ground unanswered because no one is following your logic and the logical mind rejects your twisted attempt to force it.

Of course, you all teach the dead aren't "surely" dead - they're still alive and thinking and doing things, which is the same lie the Serpent told Eve. God says the dead are incapable of anything experienced by the living, period. They don't know anything, feel anything, remember anything, do anything, plan anything, worship anything, hear anything, seer anything, and have ZERO to do with any of us living because they can't return unto us living.

The bible clearly teaches a resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous dead. We know that the wicked are resurrected but we know that they do not receive the same kind of glorified body. We don't have the answers to that. We just accept what the scripture says and wait for it to happen.

Look, there are only two kinds of bodies God's Bible talks about: mortal and immortal. Scripture says only the righteous rise with an immortal body...WHICH MEANS THE WICKED RISE WITH A MORTAL BODY and is why they are subject to the Second Death. The only people confused about this issue are those who refuse to believe the plain word of God.

We know that there is a "being with Christ" when we die...

Please show me the verse, but if you point to 2 Corinthians 5 without adding an explanation of what Paul meant by "naked" and "unclothed" you'll be found guilty of making a context a pretext.

we know that there is a resurrection of the Body later and we know that we will ultimately be part of the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to the new earth.

New Jerusalem doesn't come down to a "new" Earth - it comes down to a desolate, empty, dark, destroyed, silent Earth 1,000 years after Jesus had returned in glory to resurrect the dead in Christ and collect the living saints.

We don't understand how there are people who are resurrected, and reign with Christ a thousand years, and then the earth is destroyed and those people are then part of the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven to the new earth but we believe it. Do they get translated from the old earth to the new jerusalem to the new earth? Who Knows and people are dumb to teach dogmatic theories about it and call everyone else false if they don't agree with their theories.

We know full well what I said above is true by comparing Scripture with Scripture. The 1,000 years separate the risen righteous dead from "the rest of the dead" which "lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

We don't know how we have a spiritual body while waiting the resurrection but we believe it anyway.

You're believing lies - there is not "spiritual body" mentioned in Scripture - only the mortal body and the immortal body.

I don't have to understand it. God can do it. If he can resurrect my body even if it is burned to ashes, he can give me a supernatural existence after I die that you can't explain.

I'll tell you what He does: He takes the dust of the Earth, fashions a new you, puts within you the same brain you had when you died, and - voila - a new you lives. The question is, will that body be mortal or immortal?

I believe Paul includes the hope of some kind of a body after we die even before the resurrection. You don't see him saying that but I think he is saying exactly that.

WHERE, PLEASE? NOT 2 CORINTHIANS 2.

The best bible teacher will read the verses below without comment and let those that hear them understand these words as they are spoken. If they give people an expectation of being with the Lord when they die, then I think they have understood Paul clearly.

No, a good teacher will examine ALL the words of a passage and compare them with other texts to see if they agree or if symbolism is in use, because there are no contradictions in Scripture, but plenty of contradictions of interpretation, such as claiming the dead still conscious when numerous authors flatly deny that.

 

[Phoneman-777]

hmm.

you say life and death are mutually exclusive
you say everyone is annihilated upon death
you say we are dead in Christ

so aren't you saying we don't exist?

Those who are yet alive exist...those who are dead in Christ don't exist. Those who are dead without Christ don't exist either.

That's why Paul put everything on the resurrection: our hope, our means of comforting bereaved saints, our ultimate rest from this body of "burden" and "groaning", he put everything on the resurrection down here, not that at death we appear immediately up there.

 

[Phoneman-777]

True, but I also know how to read before engaging to obtain the lay of the land, the opponents, the allies, the Switzerlanders, the type of weapons deployed, where major or minor skirmishes are, where traps and landmines are, and whether or not there is an eye in the sky about to reign down some tungsten rods.

I keep dropping 10 Megaton truth bombs on these guys, but truth seems to have no effect on these guys...or maybe they keep respawning with some crazy cheat code, I don't know.

Like, when they say that at death they immediately take a "spiritual body" with them to heaven, I launch a warhead from 2 Corinthians 2 where it mentions only TWO types of bodies, the mortal we have now and the immortal at the end time resurrection, according to 1 Corinthians 15...this mysterious "spiritual body" exists only in the minds of the Immortal Soul crowd.

 

[justbyfaith]

No you simply stated something after the fact. Please see my previous reply on this.

I did not simply "jump in". I responded directly to your response to my reply. Phoneman777 was not a part of either of our replies to one another.

As stated, brother Phoneman777 is capable of answering for himself, and none of my replies have ever answered for him, nor intend to be an answer for him unless he himself personally approves of a particular response, and that goes for this reply.

You will have to specifically ask Phoneman777 to address your concern and to clarify his statements if you have issue by asking and replying to him and his posts.

When Jesus died, humanity (that which is mortal in nature) died, not Divinity (for that would be impossible, for Divinity is inherently immortal). Jesus was dead and in the tomb, not leaving there until commanded of the Father to arise. The Bible states that the tomb was where "the Lord lay" for those "three days". Job confirms this prophetically.

Jesus' humanity and His Deity was intertwined in His soul; and it was His Divine Human Soul that was offered up as an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I keep dropping 10 Megaton truth bombs on these guys, but truth seems to have no effect on these guys...or maybe they keep respawning with some crazy cheat code, I don't know.

Like, when they say that at death they immediately take a "spiritual body" with them to heaven, I launch a warhead from 2 Corinthians 2 where it mentions only TWO types of bodies, the mortal we have now and the immortal at the end time resurrection, according to 1 Corinthians 15...this mysterious "spiritual body" exists only in the minds of the Immortal Soul crowd.

They misunderstand the phrase "spiritual body" (1 Cor. 15:44) and they mentally think 'spirit body' which is a contradiction in terms (Luke 24:39; John 3:6), an immortal, incorporeal gaseous entity of mystical aether.

The "spiritual body" of 1 Cor. 15:44, is the resurrected and glorified physical body of flesh and bones ("it is raised"), as Jesus has (Philippians 3:21), under the control of (subjected to; Romans 6:16) the Holy Spirit. This can somewhat be experienced now (Romans 8:1,5,13; Galatians 5:16) as well though before resurrection and/or translation we still have the fallen flesh nature to bring under control (1 Cor. 9:27).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Jesus' humanity and His Deity was intertwined in His soul; and it was His Divine Human Soul that was offered up as an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10).

I don't really have any issue with your reply, other than I might add the word "mysteriously" between "was" and "intertwined".