Why does the KJV say "they prophesied, and did not cease" in Num 11:25

[Amanuensis]

This should make for a good discussion. I would like scholarly attempts to answer this. I do not know the answer. I am hoping someone might shed some light on it even by giving good links to scholarly discussions that I did not find with a Google search.

I found one discussion about the ambiguity between two Hebrew words that mean "to keep doing' or "not keep doing" depending on how it is used, but I am not sure if that was strong enough for all English Translations to depart from the KJV. And I know there were manuscripts that the KJV were not privy to, but I am not sure if they are the reason for the difference or if it is must a matter of Hebrew language itself.

Why does the KJV say "they prophesied, and did not cease" in Num 11:25 But all other English translations say something like "they prophesied—but did not do so again"

KJV 25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when n them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

ESV And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it.

Saying that the elders never prophesied again after this just does not seem what the author intended but maybe he did.
Saying that they did not prophesy again after this could be used in teaching the difference between the Holy Spirit coming upon them in this instance and the Holy Spirit coming on NT believers that is a continuous influence.

Saying that they did not cease in this context would mean they keep on prophesying for such a length of time that they drew attention to themselves and were noticeably under a divine influence but not to be meant as literal did not cease as certainly they did at some point in the day or the next.

So even if the correct translation were "did not cease" no one seems to think that it meant anything more than for an extended period of time. It would not mean that they prophesied all the time after that.

So either rendering would communicate that this was a one time event. So It does not really change the story so much but the statement "But they did not continue doing it" is sort of odd, since the man has run to the tabernacle to tell Moses that they indeed were continuing to do it and as of yet certainly had not quit.

So to interpret two Hebrew words that mean "Did not" and "cease" as something like "This never happened again" is quite the interpretation and not a translation isn't it?

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[JTB]

Most translations say they stopped prophesying. And most that said it continued seem to be "off brands", excepting the KJV and it's iterations.

The Lamsa Bible has an interesting take on it, saying:

And the LORD came down in a cloud and spoke to him, and took of the spirit that was upon him and gave it to the seventy elders; and it came to pass that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and then they ceased to complain.

Which is plausible because Numbers 11 is about God and Moses reacting to the people complaining and griping. Their intent was to stop the whining.

 

[Edify]

I think this is another error found in the KJV. It is well known that those who claim errors in the Bible often use the KJV.

 

[JStates]

You left out a key clause in your quotation of the KJV. A typo, perhaps, since there's a random letter in place of it in your version. Here is what the verse says, missing clause from the OP added back in.

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

They aren't prophesying without ceasing, PERIOD. They are prophesying without ceasing WHEN THE SPIRIT WAS UPON THEM. I don't see in the passage that the spirit lingered on them for ever and ever. In the OT, people had "bursts" of inspiration from God's holy spirit, but it was not a permanent indwelling like believers have today.

Another passage of prophets ministering for long periods seemingly without rest or with little rest:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Though in the above case, there are two, so perhaps they are prophesying in shifts while the other rests/eats/etc. In fact, this could be a possibility in the Numbers account too. It would be weird for all those elders to be prophesying at the same time. Confusing.

 

[Amanuensis]

You left out a key clause in your quotation of the KJV. A typo, perhaps, since there's a random letter in place of it in your version. Here is what the verse says, missing clause from the OP added back in.

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

They aren't prophesying without ceasing, PERIOD. They are prophesying without ceasing WHEN THE SPIRIT WAS UPON THEM. I don't see in the passage that the spirit lingered on them for ever and ever. In the OT, people had "bursts" of inspiration from God's holy spirit, but it was not a permanent indwelling like believers have today.

Another passage of prophets ministering for long periods seemingly without rest or with little rest:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Though in the above case, there are two, so perhaps they are prophesying in shifts while the other rests/eats/etc. In fact, this could be a possibility in the Numbers account too. It would be weird for all those elders to be prophesying at the same time. Confusing.

I think all 70 prophesied at the same time. And I think they continued long enough for the man to run to Moses and tell on the two in the camp. That while he was telling Moses, they were still doing it, because Joshua was afraid something terrible was going to happen if they did not stop. (the two in the camp that is)

That I can see is the scenario. Saying that they did not cease (KJV) if that is the correct translation would simply mean in the sense that they did it for a while. An hour. Maybe two? Enough to cause all this commotion that made the man go and tell Moses about it. Obviously the other 68 were doing the same thing as this was all by the Spirit of the Lord and at some point that Spirit lifted off them and they were able to stop prophesying. Now this scenario is the same no matter which translation you choose, however the common one "They did not do it again" or something similar leaves one wonder if the Hebrews words that are translated as such are clearly meant to suggest that these 70 never prophesied again and that was the intent? Because I am not sure that you can get that from the two Hebrew words in question. Maybe it means "They did not continue to do a thing" or maybe it means "They did not stop continuing to do a thing" But I don't think it means they never prophesied again the rest of their lives. I don't think that question is addressed here.

 

[JStates]

I actually have just posted a topic about three touchstones for determining a trustworthy Bible version. That thread may contribute to this discussion here if it is approved.

 

[Amanuensis]

I actually have just posted a topic about three touchstones for determining a trustworthy Bible version. That thread may contribute to this discussion here if it is approved.

We can talk about that. I don't mind. On that subject I usually refer people to that easy to understand book "How to read a Bible for all Its Worth" by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stewart.

As to how this topic applies to the OP I would say that the question to ask is what do the manuscripts in extant say for this verse in question. Then what are the variants. (manuscripts that differ from others) and what do textual critics say they think are the reasons fo these variants.

In this instance I don't even know if we have such a variant to discuss.

I think it might be a matter of translating ambiguous Hebrew words. Sometimes when and why they are different in the KJV is probably not based on different words in manuscripts but rather what is the actual ancient Hebrew intended to say.

Here is the Interlinear from BibleHub. As to what the KJV were reading verse what the other Translaters were reading, (what manuscripts) I don't know that there were differences but rather it might be more of a question as to how the word yasapu is supposed to be translated. It only occurs once and in this verse in question.

yā·sā·p̄ū — 1 Occurrence
Numbers 11:25
HEB: וַיִּֽתְנַבְּא֖וּ וְלֹ֥א יָסָֽפוּ׃
NAS: upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do [it] again.
KJV: upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
INT: prophesied did not do

 

[KelbyofGod]

Saying that they did not cease in this context would mean they keep on prophesying for such a length of time that they drew attention to themselves and were noticeably under a divine influence but not to be meant as literal did not cease as certainly they did at some point in the day or the next.

My apologies for not answering from a scholarly point of view, but I think you hit on the correct meaning here.
They were given a spirit of prophecy that remained on them, manifesting enough to make it clear that it was not a one-time fluke.

Contextually, God was sharing the power of Moses with these men so they could help carry the burden of ministering to the needs of the people. The continuing manifestations would help the people realize it is time to break their exclusive reliance on Moses. (IMHO)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[JTB]

Most translations say they stopped prophesying. And most that said it continued seem to be "off brands", excepting the KJV and it's iterations.

The Lamsa Bible has an interesting take on it, saying:

And the LORD came down in a cloud and spoke to him, and took of the spirit that was upon him and gave it to the seventy elders; and it came to pass that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and then they ceased to complain.

Which is plausible because Numbers 11 is about God and Moses reacting to the people complaining and griping. Their intent was to stop the whining.

So no one is going to address the question of whether the ceasing was meant to apply to the people's complaining, and not the prophesying? The prophesy was, after all, a response to the complaining.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Many versions before the KJV say "did not cease" or some variation thereof: Wycliffe Bible, Coverdale, Matthew's Bible, the Great Bible, Geneva Bible and the Bishop's Bible.

This is one of the weaknesses of the KJV, oftentimes they just copied what had come before. I believe King James instructed them to follow as closely as possible the Bishop's Bible which says: "dyd not ceasse."

 

[KelbyofGod]

So no one is going to address the question of whether the ceasing was meant to apply to the people's complaining, and not the prophesying? The prophesy was, after all, a response to the complaining.

I did not because I think it highly unlikely and only due to a misenterpretation , errant translation or someone just wanting it to mean that.

The reason being the structure of the sentence.

"They" and "them" in the sentence were clearly referencing the 70 in the early portions of the sentence But that translation is either:

1. Claiming that the word "they" continues to reference the 70, which means "only the 70 ceased to complain" which makes strangely little sense ... OR...
2. Claiming that the word "they" changes meaning suddenly, and in the middle of the sentence, which is an inconsistency and lack of precision not common in the bible, (at least not that I've noticed)

The only "well sort of" exception that I can readily think of is the interaction between Laban and Jacob regarding which animals Jacob was to have at the end of the day in Genesis 30:31-36. Here's the scenario:

1. Two people are talking. (Laban and Jacob)
2. Jacob makes a proposal for fair compensation
3. Laban excitedly agrees to the proposal.
4. Someone carries out the proposal
5. It SOUNDS like one person was going to carry out the proposal (per the agreement)
6. But who ACTUALLY carried it out?
7. And did they carry it out according to the terms of the proposal?

The answer to #6 can be discovered in verse 36 (because God is indeed precise in his wording).
The answer to #7 can be discovered in the dream and interpretation given to Jacob by God in Genesis 31:1-12 but especially verses 10 and 12.

Feel free to ask for explanations if the answers are not evident. They weren't for me. I had to pray about it and wait for God to open my understanding. But here's the text about Jacob's proposal for compensation. Read it carefully and see if you can discern who carried out the separation of sheep and goats in verse 35:

Genesis 30:31-36 KJV

And he[Laban] said, What shall I give thee? And Jacob said, Thou shalt not give me any thing: if thou wilt do this thing for me, I will again feed and keep thy flock: [32] I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire. [33] So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me. [34] And Laban said, Behold, I would it might be according to thy word. [35] And he removed that day the he goats that were ringstraked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons. [36] And he set three days' journey betwixt himself and Jacob: and Jacob fed the rest of Laban's flocks.​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[JTB]

I did not because I think it highly unlikely and only due to a misenterpretation , errant translation or someone just wanting it to mean that.

The reason being the structure of the sentence.

"They" and "them" in the sentence were clearly referencing the 70 in the early portions of the sentence But that translation is either:

1. Claiming that the word "they" continues to reference the 70, which means "only the 70 ceased to complain" which makes strangely little sense ... OR...
2. Claiming that the word "they" changes meaning suddenly, and in the middle of the sentence, which is an inconsistency and lack of precision not common in the bible, (at least not that I've noticed)

The only "well sort of" exception that I can readily think of is the interaction between Laban and Jacob regarding which animals Jacob was to have at the end of the day in Genesis 30:31-36. Here's the scenario:

1. Two people are talking. (Laban and Jacob)
2. Jacob makes a proposal for fair compensation
3. Laban excitedly agrees to the proposal.
4. Someone carries out the proposal
5. It SOUNDS like one person was going to carry out the proposal (per the agreement)
6. But who ACTUALLY carried it out?
7. And did they carry it out according to the terms of the proposal?

The answer to #6 can be discovered in verse 36 (because God is indeed precise in his wording).
The answer to #7 can be discovered in the dream and interpretation given to Jacob by God in Genesis 31:1-12 but especially verses 10 and 12.

Feel free to ask for explanations if the answers are not evident. They weren't for me. I had to pray about it and wait for God to open my understanding. But here's the text about Jacob's proposal for compensation. Read it carefully and see if you can discern who carried out the separation of sheep and goats in verse 35:

Genesis 30:31-36 KJV

And he[Laban] said, What shall I give thee? And Jacob said, Thou shalt not give me any thing: if thou wilt do this thing for me, I will again feed and keep thy flock: [32] I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire. [33] So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me. [34] And Laban said, Behold, I would it might be according to thy word. [35] And he removed that day the he goats that were ringstraked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons. [36] And he set three days' journey betwixt himself and Jacob: and Jacob fed the rest of Laban's flocks.​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I would say Jacob was the actor in verse 35, because the deal was for him (not Laban) to do so (Vs 32).

I haven't really thought about how many times "they" changes actors when the Bible talks about two (or more) people interacting, but I'll keep an eye out for that now.

I know that in other books and speech, 'they' can refer to different actors within a narrative story.

Good points, and I assume the reference was to the prophesiers since pretty much every other translator believed it to be. I just thought it was interesting that one (maybe two) translators came to the conclusion that the ones who ceased were the complainers. And until I study the original language, I still think it's plausible. If the complaining didn't cease, then God's response to it didn't work.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I would say Jacob was the actor in verse 35, because the deal was for him (not Laban) to do so (Vs 32).

I thought so, too until verse 36 when it continues to say he put distance between his(own) flocks and Jacob's flocks. Jacob couldn't separate himself from himself. So it was Laban who actually did the sorting and separating (breaking the terms of the agreement already). The "He" became Laban after verse 35 because at verse 35 Laban speaks and becomes the named person being discussed.

As for "Did Laban execute the separation fully and fairly?" NOPE. If Laban had FULLY removed all the brown, speckled and spotted, there would have been no speckled and grisled males left to "leap" on the females in Chapter 31 verses 10& 12.

INTERESTING NOTE: In Genesis 31 God was also teaching Jacob about Genetics.. Notice in Genesis 30:37-43 that Jacob is trying to change the color of the offspring by peeling stripes into reeds to make the sheep see stripes as they get pregnant. (That wasn't actually working.) But it's not the color of the environment that causes a particular color of offspring. It's the color of the parents... specifically the males. And God showed that relationship to Jacob in the dream of Genesis 31:10&12. If Jacob took hold of that lesson, he would have a significant advantage over any competing producers from that point on.

I haven't really thought about how many times "they" changes actors when the Bible talks about two (or more) people interacting, but I'll keep an eye out for that now.

That's a good idea. Often when I was praying or trying to apply a verse to my actions and it didn't work, I would ask God why it wasn't working for me. Several times he showed me that I'd overlooked a phrase or even a single word that was part of the instructions, or clarified what the outcome was REALLY going to be. Then I adjusted my behaviors or expectations and saw his word come to pass just like he said it would. I highly recommend trying it.

God cannot lie, and he cannot break his end of any promise if we're holding up our end. Search his word. Find promises and start lining up with your end.. Then see how amazingly faithful he is to keep his word.

I know that in other books and speech, 'they' can refer to different actors within a narrative story.

Yeah, that's a cool thing to pay attention to. If it's ever unclear who he is really talking to or about, Ask Him. It's a commandment to "Let your requests be made known unto God" (with prayers and supplications) Phil. 4:6 And it's his good pleasure to give.

Good points, and I assume the reference was to the prophesiers since pretty much every other translator believed it to be. I just thought it was interesting that one (maybe two) translators came to the conclusion that the ones who ceased were the complainers. And until I study the original language, I still think it's plausible. If the complaining didn't cease, then God's response to it didn't work.

I agree with all but the last sentence. God sent the spirit of prophecy upon the 70 in response to Moses' REQUEST for assistance...NOT in response to the complaining. Read verse 1 again Num 11:1... Complaining provoked a much more destructive response from God. He ANSWERS requests... He punishes murmuring and complaining.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
T

 

[KelbyofGod]

@JTB
Thanks for the thumbs up. That was a good discussion of Laban and Jacob...and more people ought to read it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby