Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The 2 verses simply describe what happens in regeneration. Believers ARE given a 'new heart'.

There is nothing in these 2 verses that say or show that this new heart is given SO THAT THE RECIPIENT CAN/WILL BELIEVE.

So you are presuming what the Bible doesn't teach. That's calvinism.

Its not a presumption.

Then prove your claim with clear Scripture.

The stoney heart is taken out. This is the HEART OF UNBELIEF. A dead person.

OK, we're still talking about regeneration.

So, show in these verses that regeneration precedes salvation.

The New Heart is a heart of of flesh. A HEART FULL OF BELIEF. A HEART OF FLESH. A living person. Eternal Life.

Right. Regeneration and salvation occur at the same time. They are synonymous. Can't have one without the other.

And Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both regeneration and faith are THROUGH FAITH. That means faith precedes them both.

 

[FreeGrace2]

justpassinthrough said:
If it’s not in scripture then where does it come from?

It is in scripture.

This illustrates how one who does NOT HAVE supportive Scripture answers. If the poster had supporting Scripture, this would have been the perfect opportunity to prove his claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
peldom10 said:
My mentions are widely read and known. You have a Bible search and satisfy.
If you can't find what you want...let me know and I will help.

Apparently from his "mentions", or better called opinions.

Wrong..alligator breath.

OH, there we go. When one has no defense for their claims/positions, just like the far left, they take to name calling.

Are you lazy?...or what. Look it up then should you be inclined.

Why do you simply refuse to repeat yourself? So then, who's really the lazy one?

That is not God's way...but it may be your way.

If your views come from God's Word, why are you continuing to NOT quote the verses that support your views?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Wrong question.

Right question: have you ever seen the word "works" in Scripture as a condition for salvation?

Yes...."faith without works is dead"...et.al.

Do you know how metaphors work?

The Greek word for "dead" is used both literally and figuratively. If you would read 2:18 in James and move the second quote marks to the end of the verse, where it belongs, you will see what James really said about faith.

 

[John146]

Are you suggesting that the basics of right and wrong are NOT present in the human make up....from birth?
If you doubt that...then observe a infant at ...oh...age 2-3-4.... when he does something wrong and notice the look on his face when challenged. It is convinceing that right from wrong is designed into the human make-up by God.

Do we all have a sin nature? Absolutely. Are we all going to eventually choose to sin? Absolutely. But when presented the word of truth, we can recognize our sin, believe that Christ died for our sins, and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

 

[John146]

Yes...."faith without works is dead"...et.al.

Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer...no works necessary on our part.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

What was Jesus Christ elected to?

To be the Savior

 

[rogerg]

No, God is NOT the gift. God GIVES the gift. Very different.

Your opinion perhaps, but not what the verse says. It tells us that salvation and faith came to them but "not of themselves",
leaving the gift as God Himself.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[rogerg]

What was Jesus Christ elected to?

Forgot to include these in my last reply:

[1Pe 2:5 KJV] 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[1Pe 2:6 KJV] 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

 

[John146]

To be the Savior

Soooo, election is not to be saved...Jesus was God's elect, God's servant. Election is always to service, not salvation.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

 

[John146]

Soooo, election is not to be saved...Jesus was God's elect, God's servant. Election is always to service, not salvation.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

This is the first mention of the word elect in scripture. It sets the standard and defines it throughout. Always look to scripture for a definition, the first mention principle.

 

[rogerg]

"Not by works" is pointing to the law...the law could not bring about God's righteousness. God's righteousness is found in Jesus Christ.

Not sure what you mean? The law is that which condemns us. The law could not bring righteousness, but it could bring to us God's judgment. So, if the works are not the works of the law, then what other works could cause that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, God is NOT the gift. God GIVES the gift. Very different.

Your opinion perhaps, but not what the verse says. It tells us that salvation and faith came to them but "not of themselves",
leaving the gift as God Himself.

You have a very unique way of comprehending things. The verse says that salvation is the gift, not God.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:[/QUOTE]
Again, it is clear: salvation is the gift of God.

Says so plainly. I can't help you.

 

[rogerg]

Soooo, election is not to be saved...Jesus was God's elect, God's servant. Election is always to service, not salvation.

Really? No, elected to grace, not service.

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[fredoheaven]

I said that God is the gift. I think you missed the entire point

Yea, I missed your point but not the scripture point of view. You have shifted and drifted. If there is a gift of God, then there is a giver of this gift. Your case scenario only shows your getting out of gas.

 

[John146]

Not sure what you mean? The law is that which condemns us. The law could not bring righteousness, but it could bring to us God's judgment. So, if the works are not the works of the law, then what other works could cause that?

We are not saved by the works of the law.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[John146]

Really? No, elected to grace, not service.

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant of Jews that were saved, we're saved by the grace God has provided through Jesus Christ. Most other Jews were seeking it through the works of the law.

Romans 10:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

 

[fredoheaven]

The gift is Salvation. The gift is Grace. And the gift is Faith.

If it were ANY other way then Ephesians 2:8 couldn't be stated the way it is.

You would HAVE to re-word scripture. Salvation is by Grace through faith. This faith IS of yourselves. But the Grace and Salvation is from God.

You see how you are DIRECTLY contradicting scripture by your WISHFUL thinking?


John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Umm, you try to dodged the word "through" being the instrumentality What is the gift of God? I discuss this and provided other scripture to prove my point, what you have, none. Grace is unmerited favour of God. "By" indicates the means or instrumentality in which God used, hence the source is God.

 

[rogerg]

The “elect” must hear and obey the Gospel to be saved, just like the Gentiles.

Gee whiz, JPT, this must be at least the 10th time we've been through this. In order to hear one must first be given spiritual ears that CAN hear. Without that happening, the Gospel would fall on deaf spiritual ears.
Regarding obeyance, (and as I have posted numerous times before), here is its explanation again. True obedience, which is obedience to the faith, can only be received as a gift from God

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

[rogerg]

The remnant of Jews that were saved, we're saved by the grace God has provided through Jesus Christ. Most other Jews were seeking it through the works of the law.

No, everyone who becomes saved, are so, because they are of the remnant of the election of grace. See "election" below?

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.