's' no such thing as human freewill
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What you don’t get. Is that All of the above can be true. But not a justification for not having a freewill. Being led captive by the devil according to His will does not make you lose yours. Being dead in trespasses and sins does not make you lose your freewill as well. The core of the gospel you mentioned is not the core of the gospel . The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Depravity is not the same as inability. God doesn’t do everything for you. Granted it takes the message of the cross, the ministry of the Holy Spirit , and the Word of God, you use your freewill plenty prior to salvation. Just like Paul. The purpose of your reformist theology appears to become apologists for theology according to Calvin and not the KJV. Like I told one of yours before you need to lose your library and just use scripture because you are parroting a skewed version of scripture to justify T.U.L.I.P. which is total non-sense. The core of your gospel is another Jesus and another gospel. Oops.I JUST posted the answer to this above. Here it is again:
NKJV - " . . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."
Those who have not received the Cirumcision of Christ, their will, or, their choices, are determined by the will of the Devil.
Are you dismissing 2nd Timothy 2:26 as if it doesn't exist?
We THINK that we are the ones making the decisions in our lives, that is, prior to Transformation, but we do not realize that in fact, we're not! We think that we're choosing our thoughts and actions, but we're not. Is that not what Paul was describing in Romans 7?
Romans 7:18-21 NLT - "And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can't. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 21 I have discovered this principle of life--that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong."
Are you really going to deny that Paul was under the influence of his "old" Spiritual Father? That he was doing the will of he Devil? Don't you understand that this is the Purpose of Christ being sent to earth? Don't you realize that the Work of Christ centers around the removal of the Adamic Curse of the Lord? Don't you understand that the Effect of Christ's Work is to Redeem us of this Curse?
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
It was the Law that exposed the Curse, showing us what that Curse was all about. For example, the group of Benjamites that raped a woman to death. These laws showed us what sin was, for if we hadn't been told what sin was, we wouldn't have realized it.
Romans 7:7-9 NLT - "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet." 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life . . ."
To not understand that unless we are Transformed by Christ, or, to not have the Veil of Moses lifted, we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. This is the entire Purpose of Christ!
We escape the Snare of the Devil by receiving the New Divine Nature, which is the replacement of the Sinful Nature . . . this is the Circumcision of Christ!
2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."
There's that Word Escape again. Paul taught that we would "come to our senses" (meaning that we aren't in control of ourselves) by escaping the Snare of the Devil, and Peter tells us how, which is to receive the New, Divine Nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
But even then, we will be controlled by the Mind of Christ more and more until the day we finally kick the bucket and stand before the Almighty Presence of God.
Come on! This is the Core of the Gospel!
Lots of words, there.
Let's break this down to simple terms. Here it is again:
NKJV - " . . . and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."
The concept is prison. When a person is held captive, are they free to do as they wish? Or, can they come and go as they please? Are they free to think as they wish? Sure, of course. But, can they come and go? No, they can't. Why? Because they're held captive. Prison.
Have you ever been to jail? I have . . . 3 times. I can testify, having been held captive, that I lost my free will "to do" what I wanted to do. Those are the same words above. Note the Bold lettering.
In jail, I could think whatever I wanted, but I was allowed to do what I wanted to do. I was under the control of the police departments that held me captive. I ate when they told me to eat. I was not allowed to do anything other than what they told me.
According to the passage that I have offered, do you see how it relates? Both accounts are dealing with being held captive and controlled to do the will of another. Scripture? The "Warden" is Satan. My story? The Warden is the police.
How do I gain my freedom? I must escape, just as the Scripture states. I needed to come to my senses, and find a way (through Christ) to escape the captivity of the Devil.
My friend, this is the Purpose of Christ. This is the Work of Christ, and this is the Effect of Christ.
Another Gospel? You're kidding me, right? You're saying that what I have just offered isn't the Plan of God, as in the Tree of Life in the Garden? The same Tree mentioned in Revelation?
Mans thinking . Mans logic. I go to jail and I lose my freewill . Calvins views. Where is the scripture. Where is the argument ? Another Gospel Your gospel is TULIP. TULIP is not the gospel and the gospel is not TULIP. That’s my story and I’m stickin to it .
the core is having been told we must repent and coming to the realisation that we are not able we cry to God in our helpless condition. This is the key to all of God's miracles including salvation.
there is a key there ... the man in prison can fill but he cannot execute his will. The human will is not free but bound.
Which is essentially what Paul was referring to during his old, pre-Transformed life:
Romans 7:5, 17, 20, 25 NLT - "When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. ... 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ... 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. ... 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."
Of course, Paul is relating to his audience as he presents his Romans 7 story of when he was "dead," prior to being "made alive" by the Circumcision of Christ. Being "dead" is what it means to be held "captive" and to [do] the will of Satan. Being made alive is what it means to be set free of the Mind of Satan so that a Child of God [will do] the Will of the Lord. Colossians 2 proves this:
Colossians 2:13 NLT - "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."
And so Paul's Sinful Nature [WAS] cut away and removed, thus made "Alive," thus saved from the wretched body of sin that he was talking about (7:24). Paul was set free of the Curse so that he could be free to do the Will of the Lord.
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
But ultimately, when Granted the Divine Nature (in replacement of the Sinful Nature), we are CAUSED to Love the Lord and Obey the Lord.
Ezekiel 36:27 NLT - "And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."
Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - 6 "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"
We THINK that we are choosing to Love and Obey God, but Scripture is clear that our hearts are regenerated SO THAT we will "choose" to Love and Obey. The reason why these are GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT is because we are caused to Love and Obey. If it was our choice to Love and Obey, then these would not be considered Spiritual Gifts.
Ask yourself....if God chooses or makes you chose him....WHY does he
talk so much about freedom?
The whole of the N.Tis about us being free from captivity to sin and death,free from satans clutches and devices,free from fleshly worlds desires. So why would he give us all these FREEDOMS
and take away our will to accept them?
You've LOST your God given freedoms when you follow man made theology such as Catholism,Calvinism Mormonism, ECT or when you parrot any man's thoughts that don't line up to God's word!
Scripture is twisted in man's mind and heart to fit their own agenda,not God's.
Too bad so many are STANDING FIRM in the devil's doctrine, as opposed as standing firm for God and being his mighty warrior of the TRUE GOSPEL!
talk so much about freedom?
The whole of the N.Tis about us being free from captivity to sin and death,free from satans clutches and devices,free from fleshly worlds desires. So why would he give us all these FREEDOMS
and take away our will to accept them?
You've LOST your God given freedoms when you follow man made theology such as Catholism,Calvinism Mormonism, ECT or when you parrot any man's thoughts that don't line up to God's word!
Scripture is twisted in man's mind and heart to fit their own agenda,not God's.
Too bad so many are STANDING FIRM in the devil's doctrine, as opposed as standing firm for God and being his mighty warrior of the TRUE GOSPEL!
Well . That is a patently false statement. Here is why. When a soul comes to Jesus it is by the ministry of the Holy Spirit Faith is born in the unbelievers heart by the Word of God. Conversion of the soul occurs not because I realize suddenly that I can't repent but that I have been convinced that I have been doing my own thing with my freewill and sinning against God who I now realize is the God of The Bible . I become aware that I have lived without regard for Him or more likely been blinded by His relevance entirely. Now I believe Jesus is alive and offers me a way out. Now I understand the message of substitution. Now I realize He is The Way , The Truth and The Life I have to make room for a big Person in my self-centered , ego- centric life. Jesus is alive, I am a sinner , and I have been living without God now I realize I need to make adjustments. In my case I hit the floor. I didn't REALIZE that I couldn't repent. I was astounded that Jesus actually rose from the dead was alive and the Bible story was real . I took off to find this Jesus. With the appropriate forgive me and Have mercy upon me. There was no I am chosen , or I have attained to some knowledge OTHER THAN I was a lost man that God layed His Hand upon my life. Revelation. No realization that I could not repent. I begin to devour the scriptures. Unfortunately , many are never converted and instead of taking up Gods plan which is obviously to live a new life with Him in it as relevent. Become poisoned by reformist theology instead of getting to know God a new born baby which needs milk . Become captivated by the false fire of knowledge and spiritual pride . Calvinism is dangerous to your health. You never get to know the Holy Spirit in a personal fashion because He is the Spirit of Truth and will lead you and guide you into all truth. He doesn't go contrary to the Word. I have seen churches split and revivals quenched over this doctrine. I continued to seek the Lord. Those that moved to the Calvinist camp began to acquire libraries of reformist theology. I'll say it again . Instead of using the KJV for a road map . You are using an overlay or a template of mans interpretation of scripture to justify . Election, total depravity and no freewill. etc. All the dots must connect the devil is no fool this is a very clever exposition of scripture to interpret and justify John Calvin. One man. Throw in Martin Luther with his bondage of the will. You guys. I am kicking a dead horse. He tasted death for every man . But you throw that out and say it is a limited atonement pretty much parroting John Calvins belief and not the road map of scripture. You don't know squat . You just think you do all you Calvinists. Repent. Stop choking baby Christians and sincere seekers of the Truth with your tainted meat . They need milk . Not John Calvins interpretation. Most of you won't even acknowledge the any , every , all , whosovers without totally emphazing one of the TULIP overlays . It is a mans interpretation !! Seek The Lord. Trust Him. His Word and the Authority of His Word . Now what will you do with the any , every, whosoever, alls ? .......I'm not optimistic. God resists the proud. If the Holy Spirit is grieved He convinces of sin and leading andguiding into all truth is put on the back burner.
Certainly doesn't offend me!
BUT YOU'RE WRONG!
Isaiah 53v6, Ezek 18 (all), Matt 23v37....(and many other Scriptures).
You blew it in your first sentence ... it was the Holy Spirit who drew you to Jesus. If Jesus be lifted up from the world He will draw ALL men unto Him ... but not all unto salvation, some are drawn unto Him and are repulsed by the cross.
The cross is designed that way, to be a sweet savour of life to us who believe but to those who are perishing it is the foul stench of death.
People can cry all they want about it but God is not going to save the devil's crowd. YOU don't know who are the devil's crowd, God does and He knows who are His children no matter what darkness they may presently walk in ... when He calls they will answer Him .... just like you did.
Hi ... Isaiah 53 vs 6Certainly doesn't offend me!
BUT YOU'RE WRONG!
Isaiah 53v6, Ezek 18 (all), Matt 23v37....(and many other Scriptures).
ALL we [what was there no - one having "freewill" who was able to decide differently from every other human being?]
like sheep [I have seen sheep who got lost but I never saw one with freewill]
have gone astray [astray for a sheep means disaster ... as does]
we have turned every man to his own way [but our way does not lead to freedom but to bondage, soon we are caught up in thorns and thistles, we are alone and afraid, we hear the wolf coming, terror is on every side, we are miserable and distressed, we don't know what to do ... then Jesus comes to save us, at first we think it is a ghost and try to flee, but He is to fast for us and catches us]
and the Lord have laid on Him the iniquity of us all [.... Did He come and ask you? did He curtsy and beg your permission? this all happened thousands of years before you were born ... before you committed those sins God laid them upon His Son and He died under YOUR sins ... how can you possibly say it was done according to your "freewill"?
How can you even think such a thing.?
Conviction is a formal declaration that someone is QUILTY of something.
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,the wages of sin is death.( spiritual)
John 16:8
And when he is come,he will CONVICT the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.
Conviction points at a WRONG action,mindset, or belief,while condemnation points at YOU,a person!
2 Cor 7:10 .....godly sorrow brings SALVATION........
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,the wages of sin is death.( spiritual)
John 16:8
And when he is come,he will CONVICT the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.
Conviction points at a WRONG action,mindset, or belief,while condemnation points at YOU,a person!
2 Cor 7:10 .....godly sorrow brings SALVATION........
"How can you even think such a thing?"
The FREEWILL of mankind is to serve or reject God,his word and his son and all the creator has done.
It is God's plan,his son followed it to the letter.
Prophecy was recorded and fulfilled at his b,d,b and r. We are God's plan but not by force but by choice....choose this day whom ye shall serve........
The FREEWILL of mankind is to serve or reject God,his word and his son and all the creator has done.
It is God's plan,his son followed it to the letter.
Prophecy was recorded and fulfilled at his b,d,b and r. We are God's plan but not by force but by choice....choose this day whom ye shall serve........
... but you will serve, you will either be a servant [slave] to sin or an obedient child of God ... 's no such thing as freewill.
Choice is not freewill for we do not create the options, we can't come up with an alternative option or plan of our own. We do not even have the choice not to choose, we must choose.
But what if God does not extend the choice to us? what if you was a Red Indian before the Europeans arrived? how are you going to choose to be saved?
The truth is mankind is already lost, helpless and with hope, without God in the world. Salvation is by the grace of God only.
No we do not create the options,God did.
There are ONLY two choices choose God and live,reject him and die.........if people really believed this what do you think their CHOICE would be.
We are not made or forced to choose,it is by recognizing our sins according to the word and seeing ourselves as filthy as God does. Seeing by the light of the HOLY SPIRIT.
I like you,but your Calvinistic views( didn't say you follow Calvin) are skewing the word according to man. Look up those views of his theology.
There are ONLY two choices choose God and live,reject him and die.........if people really believed this what do you think their CHOICE would be.
We are not made or forced to choose,it is by recognizing our sins according to the word and seeing ourselves as filthy as God does. Seeing by the light of the HOLY SPIRIT.
I like you,but your Calvinistic views( didn't say you follow Calvin) are skewing the word according to man. Look up those views of his theology.
It doesn't matter what their choice will be. What matters is what God's choice will be. He determined that I should be saved. Did the Good Shepherd force the sheep to be found? was the prodigal son forced to return to his father? he had a choice that was no choice at all. That's the way God predestined the whole thing.
You are right I never learned Calvin.
It is the freewill doctrine that begins with man and is skewed manward ... you chose, you decided, it was your freewill ... God was busy knitting socks.
Oh but you've been TAUGHT Calvinism. Your words proclaim it,even down to predestined.
I am sorry but I've found the people that hold to these teachings can not be taught by those who are against what they believe.
Perhaps on another thread and another topic then
Peace in Jesus
Dear Evmur,
I certainly agree with your understanding of mankind's supposed "free will". Mankind has no free will because God's "will" rules supreme over His creation.
I am now curious about your other beliefs. Do you believe that Christ is the Savior of the world as scripture clearly says? That Christ will in fact save 100% of mankind?
If you have read my posts on the thread "Every "solution" to the problem of evil is itself evil", then you know that I certainly believe that Christ is the Savior of the world and that mankind's salvation rests solely in His hands. And since God never fails, Christ will not fail to save each and every person who has ever lived. The Father has ordained two ages of time for Christ to accomplish this great work. The first age is occurring now and is for the salvation of the "heirs" or First Fruits. They are also called the saints, the Elect, the Overcomers, etc. They have been chosen from the foundation of the world and they are the only ones who Christ is saving in this present age. In the next and final age, the rest of mankind will be saved. Once the "fullness of the Gentiles" have been brought into the Kingdom of Heaven, then the remaining portion of Israel will be saved (the first will be last and the last will be first).
In addition to the order of salvation that I mentioned above, Christ has laid out a pathway to salvation that each chosen person must travel in this age. That pathway is long and involves going through both the wide gate and the narrow gate. At the end of the pathway, we receive our full salvation. If you would like to know more of this pathway, I would be happy to share with you what the Lord has revealed to me.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Joe