Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?

[Blik]

amen to that !!!

it’s a veil when we try to make the two seperate covenants into one because thier directives are contrary it dreates a conflict “ do I obey the law of Moses and what it says ? Or do I believe Christ and what he said ?”

Moses mediated the old covenant but his mediation was cut off when Christ fulfilled the promises in the law so that now only Christ can mediate a relationship with God we have to repent of the old and new born in the new

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the old was an earthly pattern for the new like a shadow cast by God over the earth but now he actually has arrived in Christ speaking forth salvation that was always promised beforehand the truth has arrived out of the shadows of the ot

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he was always promising a messiah to come , a covenant to come and a word to come that would be required by God and it’s not Moses words required , but Jesus words that are Gods requirement to believe

The two covenants share that they were given by the Lord for our benefit. Both covenant, according to scripture, contain the law. One covenant is an improvement on the OTHER COVENANT, and when something improves something it uses what it improves. Both covenants are created by a God who i Holy and good, what that holy, good God creates has to also be holy and good.

Both covenants contain the law, and yet you are preaching they are contrary to each other rather than look for how one was an improvement on the other. Do you preach that the veil God speaks of was meant for us to close out the spiritual law of the Lord? Scripture tells us that law is eternal, and Paul says it is good.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The two covenants share that they were given by the Lord for our benefit. Both covenant, according to scripture, contain the law. One covenant is an improvement on the OTHER COVENANT, and when something improves something it uses what it improves. Both covenants are created by a God who i Holy and good, what that holy, good God creates has to also be holy and good.

Both covenants contain the law, and yet you are preaching they are contrary to each other rather than look for how one was an improvement on the other. Do you preach that the veil God speaks of was meant for us to close out the spiritual law of the Lord? Scripture tells us that law is eternal, and Paul says it is good.

so Jesus preached for this purpose but he did it better than Moses ?

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying Jesus preached for that purpose but improved it so he’s really really gonna condemn us then huh ? Or did he come to offer this which the law cannot ?

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,

being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how the law served it’s purpose and made everyone sinners ? Remember above there what it’s purpose was

“what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. “

It seems like the law came and condemned the world and held them guilty for their sins and Jesus came to reveal Gods true righteousness and salvation without the law

but I sort of try to stick to the simplicity of what’s there . I could be terribly wrong to do that but I am convinced that what’s written is the understanding and we don’t need to reject it but we need to accept it and let it form how we think about it

but sister over time I’ve become convinced that you won’t move from the Old Testament law and trying to make it fit into the gospel . I think awhile ago when you informed me you had enough of our discussions about the law I went ahead and respected that

I became convinced that your going to always try to tie Moses word into christs which isnt what I believe. I believe there was an old covenant that israel broke and fulfilled the curse written throughout the law which was the old covenant

and God had been promising to make a new one not according to the old one when the messiah came. And I’m surely not going to change on that there’s way too much scripture saying it plainly so I don’t want to argue and debate with you over the law of Moses you already know my position and I know yours

That being said I always find value in your posts on other matters and the thing is if your convinced of the law being your law you should be fully convinced and keep it

you shouldn’t try to convince other Christians of it though it’s a yoke and subversion to the soul
Of a disciple to yoke the law around thier neck

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5, 10-11, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Can you imagine the apostles saying that our the gospel ? Not a chance

 

[Blik]

so Jesus preached for this purpose but he did it better than Moses ?

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying Jesus preached for that purpose but improved it so he’s really really gonna condemn us then huh ? Or did he come to offer this which the law cannot ?

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,

being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how the law served it’s purpose and made everyone sinners ? Remember above there what it’s purpose was

“what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. “

It seems like the law came and condemned the world and held them guilty for their sins and Jesus came to reveal Gods true righteousness and salvation without the law

but I sort of try to stick to the simplicity of what’s there . I could be terribly wrong to do that but I am convinced that what’s written is the understanding and we don’t need to reject it but we need to accept it and let it form how we think about it

but sister over time I’ve become convinced that you won’t move from the Old Testament law and trying to make it fit into the gospel . I think awhile ago when you informed me you had enough of our discussions about the law I went ahead and respected that

I became convinced that your going to always try to tie Moses word into christs which isnt what I believe. I believe there was an old covenant that israel broke and fulfilled the curse written throughout the law which was the old covenant

and God had been promising to make a new one not according to the old one when the messiah came. And I’m surely not going to change on that there’s way too much scripture saying it plainly so I don’t want to argue and debate with you over the law of Moses you already know my position and I know yours

That being said I always find value in your posts on other matters and the thing is if your convinced of the law being your law you should be fully convinced and keep it

you shouldn’t try to convince other Christians of it though it’s a yoke and subversion to the soul
Of a disciple to yoke the law around thier neck

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5, 10-11, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Can you imagine the apostles saying that our the gospel ? Not a chance

Jesus is God. Moses is not.

It was not Moses who used his finger to write the law in stone, it was God. It was the best law that would do the most good for the people at that time, it was given as rules to follow. Under the old covenant, there were fleshly type laws to follow. Those very same laws were put in our hearts under the new covenant, and chapter five in Matthews tells all about it. That chapter starts bu telling us that under the new covenant the laws or prophets do not change, but the rest of the chapter describes the change in the law when it is in our hearts and not just rules to follow. That is the new covenant, it says so in Jeremiah 31:31.

In Matthew 5, Christ gives us five examples of how the law in our hearts changes the law in stone. It is the difference between obeying by the letter of the law and obeying by the spirit of the law. God is spirit. The true law has always been a law of the spirit.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus is God. Moses is not.

It was not Moses who used his finger to write the law in stone, it was God. It was the best law that would do the most good for the people at that time, it was given as rules to follow. Under the old covenant, there were fleshly type laws to follow. Those very same laws were put in our hearts under the new covenant, and chapter five in Matthews tells all about it. That chapter starts bu telling us that under the new covenant the laws or prophets do not change, but the rest of the chapter describes the change in the law when it is in our hearts and not just rules to follow. That is the new covenant, it says so in Jeremiah 31:31.

In Matthew 5, Christ gives us five examples of how the law in our hearts changes the law in stone. It is the difference between obeying by the letter of the law and obeying by the spirit of the law. God is spirit. The true law has always been a law of the spirit.

Sister getting in a huff and avoiding all the clear scripture won’t help us come together in understanding . who said Moses is God ? I agree though Moses isn’t God for sure.

Sister please consider what I’m saying. The law has a purpose it’s this purpose

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can you acknowledge that that is true ?

I’m not saying The law is wrong or a lie I’m saying it was given for a different purpose not salvstion . God understood everything beforehand he already knew he would send Jesus one day but first he had to make mankind’s sin known To us make known that we were guilty

Can you acknowledge who the law is meant for ?

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not saying God didn’t give the Ten Commandments

I’m saying they aren’t for a born again Christian they are for killers liars cheaters adulterers ect that group paul explained there it’s for the old sinful man

if a person is sitting around plotting a murder they need to be told not to kill.. but it’s also proof they aren’t a born again Christian if they are plotting killings.

you don’t have to tell a Christian “ don’t kill “ “ don’t steal “ “ don’t lie “ that’s not thier doctrine it’s for unborn sinners like again Paul plainly states there

it’s meant for sinners to teach them thier sin and guilt and bring the need for Gods mercy and grace which is found in the gospel

you never seem to wuote get what I’m saying but I always try to show you the scriptures of why I’m saying it.

again Yes God wrote the Ten Commandments because he was dealing with unspiritual sinful people so he said don’t kill don’t lie don’t cheat don’t have other gods ect he said it because TV ate what they were like they were like the Egyptians they’d been here without contact from God 400 years hey we’re idolaters adulterers murderers ect

If we are born again we’re not going to have to constantly be reminded what not to do “ don’t kill “ is irrelevant to a Christian they are following Christ and learning how to love people he’s never going to lead them to kill so the commandment becomes irrelevant to the born again Christian believer in the gospel

And what Christian is going to worship any other God ? They believe the truth already they would never do it so the commandment becomes moot it’s no longer needed because they are Christians following the way truth and life

Moses law is not for the same purpose of the gospel the gospel is not to hold us guilty and teach us sin it’s for the opposite purpose to remit our sins and teach us righteousness

It’s hard to discuss this particular subject with you simply because you never seem to acknolwedge what the scripture says can you done a favor and just consider what Paul’s saying there ?

the old ckvenwnt was meant to lead the world to the new covenant once we have Christ and the gospel the law is no longer for us we have what’s far better and won’t condemn us to death like the law

 

[Grandpa]

Your interpretation of scripture does not agree with what I have found in the word. You say God failed when God had Moses give the law. God!! failed!! The law he gave was a law given by a holy God, a God who could create all the earth and humans and to you this holy God gave a failure of a law. I don't think so. The law is from a God who is spirit, and the true law that is eternal like our God is eternal, is spiritual.

To help mankind live in harmony with the law God gave fleshly explanations and helps to man. As an example, being circumcised was important and that meant cutting the fleshly part of living and marking ourselves as being God's people not people of the flesh. They were given commands to help them do and understand, the commands acted as a schoolmaster acted leading the children to school. Christ put these laws in our hearts, we are not to use the schoolmasters any longer.

So by interpreting scripture differently you do what scripture tells you not to do, you call people dummies. Scripture says not to even call them fools.

You are, however, correct when you say Paul does not contradict Christ.

God didn't fail.

He gave the dummies what they wanted.

But the dummies couldn't fulfill their end of the agreement.


So the dummies needed a new agreement. Which He gave that to them as well.

But the dummies want to go back to the first agreement, that they couldn't fulfill, and somehow keep trying to work at it (and fail at) in their own understanding and strength.

 

[Jocund]

I can understand from the perspective of someone that does not have the New Testament but I always found it unusual that some Christians would place such an emphasis on the finger of God used to write on the first set of stone tablets. As though they think this has some greater meaning than God communicating in any other way. Not only is "finger of God" potentially metaphoric (as Moses could not have actually seen God and lived), but the second set of tablets that actually made it to the people could have been written by God through the hands of Moses, much like God made miracles happen through Paul.

The law points to righteousness. Righteousness has always been the goal. It's not the law that we are striving for, it is righteous. One can attain righteousness without the OT law.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God didn't fail.

He gave the dummies what they wanted.

But the dummies couldn't fulfill their end of the agreement.


So the dummies needed a new agreement. Which He gave that to them as well.

But the dummies want to go back to the first agreement, that they couldn't fulfill, and somehow keep trying to work at it (and fail at) in their own understanding and strength.

lol I had forgot about your sense of humor haha just wanted to add a couple scriptures for support of what your saying

“He gave the dummies what they wanted.”

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.

Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.

And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25, 27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he answered as they asked according tonthier desire not to hear his word anymore but also he promised Christ would come with his true word that’s required of God

“According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:16-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even Moses understood who’s word held superiority and that he would come afterwards with the truth of Gods word we can understand that this is a promise of Jesus and his words of God because Peter explains it that Jesus is the fulfillment of that

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then of course Jesus claimed to be the one God sent to speak his word that Moses had written about

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭

“For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They asked not to hear him because they couldn’t even bear the first commandment before Moses had brought The commandments down they already had a calf built worshipping it that’s how “wicked” they were they broke the covenant before it could be written down what he said and they had already agreed to keep every word not too smart indeed

 

[Nehemiah6]

I always found it unusual that some Christians would place such an emphasis on the finger of God used to write on the first set of stone tablets. As though they think this has some greater meaning than God communicating in any other way. Not only is "finger of God" potentially metaphoric (as Moses could not have actually seen God and lived), but the second set of tablets that actually made it to the people could have been written by God through the hands of Moses, much like God made miracles happen through Paul.

You had better believe that when God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tablets of stone that had TREMENDOUS SIGNIFICANCE. And the Bible is crystal clear that this was no metaphor. No, Moses did not write on the second set of tablets either. And the fact that Moses was commanded to place those tablets within the Ark of the Covenant simply adds to the tremendous significance of the Ten Commandments (which are eternal and both spiritual and moral).

Getting back to Paul and Christ, Paul was simply building on the foundation laid by the Lord Jesus Christ. So anyone who suggests that (a) Paul's writings are superior and exclusively for the Church, or (b) Paul was a charlatan and should be disregarded, or (c) there is a conflict between the teachings of Paul and Christ, does not really understand the New Testament. The very fact that Paul wrote over half of the NT speaks for itself.

 

[Jocund]

You had better believe that when God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tablets of stone that had TREMENDOUS SIGNIFICANCE. And the Bible is crystal clear that this was no metaphor. No, Moses did not write on the second set of tablets either. And the fact that Moses was commanded to place those tablets within the Ark of the Covenant simply adds to the tremendous significance of the Ten Commandments (which are eternal and both spiritual and moral).

Getting back to Paul and Christ, Paul was simply building on the foundation laid by the Lord Jesus Christ. So anyone who suggests that (a) Paul's writings are superior and exclusively for the Church, or (b) Paul was a charlatan and should be disregarded, or (c) there is a conflict between the teachings of Paul and Christ, does not really understand the New Testament. The very fact that Paul wrote over half of the NT speaks for itself.

A message from God is a message from God. Why do you care so much for something written in stone when God touches on your very heart and mind to give you something so much more personal and meaningful? Elevating the significance of stone over the Spirit is wrong.

And again, there is no evidence that the second set of stones were not written by God through Moses' hands. It is just a common convention to assume that God's finger was used for the second set of tablets, much like assuming the fruit in the Garden of Eden from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an apple. It is not evident in scripture.

The message was important at the time, not because of the medium or because of the sign that it came down by, but because it was a setup leading to the New Testament and the New Covenant in Christ.

a) Paul's writings are superior

I don't know anyone that claimed that Paul's writings were superior. The premise here is that we should be looking at scripture holistically from the NT. Paul brings proper context to much of what Christ said and did. He spoke in a way to say that Christ was speaking through him.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" - Galatians 2:20a KJV

Exclusively for the church

What do you mean by this?

The message of the NT is for those in Christ, but the message brings nonChristians to become Christian.

(b) Paul was a charlatan and should be disregarded, or (c) there is a conflict between the teachings of Paul and Christ

And this premise does come up, especially from those that would prefer to understand the NT from an OT perspective instead of the correctly from the NT. The OT says "don't eat ham", and Paul says "it's fine to eat whatever you like". People that approach scripture from the veiled understanding of the OT just assume that Paul mustn't have meant what he said instead of acknowledging that the conditions of the OT law and the law of Christ are different.

does not really understand the New Testament. The very fact that Paul wrote over half of the NT speaks for itself.

I agree with that. The premise I am presenting here is none of a) through c). The premise here is that the completeness of the New Testament includes the writings of Paul.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[

A message from God is a message from God. Why do you care so much for something written in stone when God touches on your very heart and mind to give you something so much more personal and meaningful? Elevating the significance of stone over the Spirit is wrong.

And again, there is no evidence that the second set of stones were not written by God through Moses' hands. It is just a common convention to assume that God's finger was used for the second set of tablets, much like assuming the fruit in the Garden of Eden from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an apple. It is not evident in scripture.

The message was important at the time, not because of the medium or because of the sign that it came down by, but because it was a setup leading to the New Testament and the New Covenant in Christ.



I don't know anyone that claimed that Paul's writings were superior. The premise here is that we should be looking at scripture holistically from the NT. Paul brings proper context to much of what Christ said and did. He spoke in a way to say that Christ was speaking through him.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" - Galatians 2:20a KJV



What do you mean by this?

The message of the NT is for those in Christ, but the message brings nonChristians to become Christian.



And this premise does come up, especially from those that would prefer to understand the NT from an OT perspective instead of the correctly from the NT. The OT says "don't eat ham", and Paul says "it's fine to eat whatever you like". People that approach scripture from the veiled understanding of the OT just assume that Paul mustn't have meant what he said instead of acknowledging that the conditions of the OT law and the law of Christ are different.



I agree with that. The premise I am presenting here is none of a) through c). The premise here is that the completeness of the New Testament includes the writings of Paul.

yes Paul and all the apostles served this purpose regarding Jesus doctrine

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


They are all teaching how Jesus gospel applies to us they aren’t changing it or straying they are giving revelation ofnthe gospel Paul is a revelator ofnthe gospel as we’re the other apostles

they were to teach it applicably tonthe church for instance we learn baptism is for repentance and remission on the gospel the apostles explain baptisms operation on us Paul goes in depth telling us exactly how baptism applies to us just one example but they do that with the whole gospel they are basically elaborating on what Jesus taught them making it more revealed and teaching it’s principles and meaning ofnthe more mysterious thkngs Jesus said

a lot of the gospel is plain but other thkngs are a bit mysterious the apostles make it more understandable at points and teach the church it’s applications and effects it’s hopes and assurance it’s call to repentance and eternal life revealing all of his promises to come

the apostles are even in prophecy

 

[Blik]

Sister getting in a huff and avoiding all the clear scripture won’t help us come together in understanding . who said Moses is God ? I agree though Moses isn’t God for sure.

Sister please consider what I’m saying. The law has a purpose it’s this purpose

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can you acknowledge that that is true ?

I’m not saying The law is wrong or a lie I’m saying it was given for a different purpose not salvstion . God understood everything beforehand he already knew he would send Jesus one day but first he had to make mankind’s sin known To us make known that we were guilty

Can you acknowledge who the law is meant for ?

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not saying God didn’t give the Ten Commandments

I’m saying they aren’t for a born again Christian they are for killers liars cheaters adulterers ect that group paul explained there it’s for the old sinful man

if a person is sitting around plotting a murder they need to be told not to kill.. but it’s also proof they aren’t a born again Christian if they are plotting killings.

you don’t have to tell a Christian “ don’t kill “ “ don’t steal “ “ don’t lie “ that’s not thier doctrine it’s for unborn sinners like again Paul plainly states there

it’s meant for sinners to teach them thier sin and guilt and bring the need for Gods mercy and grace which is found in the gospel

you never seem to wuote get what I’m saying but I always try to show you the scriptures of why I’m saying it.

again Yes God wrote the Ten Commandments because he was dealing with unspiritual sinful people so he said don’t kill don’t lie don’t cheat don’t have other gods ect he said it because TV ate what they were like they were like the Egyptians they’d been here without contact from God 400 years hey we’re idolaters adulterers murderers ect

If we are born again we’re not going to have to constantly be reminded what not to do “ don’t kill “ is irrelevant to a Christian they are following Christ and learning how to love people he’s never going to lead them to kill so the commandment becomes irrelevant to the born again Christian believer in the gospel

And what Christian is going to worship any other God ? They believe the truth already they would never do it so the commandment becomes moot it’s no longer needed because they are Christians following the way truth and life

Moses law is not for the same purpose of the gospel the gospel is not to hold us guilty and teach us sin it’s for the opposite purpose to remit our sins and teach us righteousness

It’s hard to discuss this particular subject with you simply because you never seem to acknolwedge what the scripture says can you done a favor and just consider what Paul’s saying there ?

the old ckvenwnt was meant to lead the world to the new covenant once we have Christ and the gospel the law is no longer for us we have what’s far better and won’t condemn us to death like the law

There is truth in all scripture. We obey the law through Christ within us, not through our fleshly self. However, if we say that as an excuse to disobey, we are in error.

To study what scripture tells us about the law is a huge study, and if it is stopped at any one point, saying this is all scripture has to say about it, then the study is distorted. All scripture says about law and law obedience is truth, all must be accepted. Whenever you think that any one aspect of that study is the entire truth, you are in error. The law has MANY purposes, each purpose is truth.

I think the biggest differences in interpretation between Christians in regard to the covenants has to do with God saying he was wrong to give the first covenant. It comes down to our trust in the ways of our creator God and whether the first covenant was a mistake that our Father God made. If there truth in the first covenant when God created the second covenant to improve the first.

Your judgments of my posts as being "in a huff" is no so, I am stating what scripture says.

 

[Blik]

And this premise does come up, especially from those that would prefer to understand the NT from an OT perspective instead of the correctly from the NT. The OT says "don't eat ham", and Paul says "it's fine to eat whatever you like". People that approach scripture from the veiled understanding of the OT just assume that Paul mustn't have meant what he said instead of acknowledging that the conditions of the OT law and the law of Christ are different. .

I understand where you are coming from, but your paraphrasing God's commands under the first covenant gets a bit distorted.

God gave Moses fleshly type commands, not as law for God is spirit, but as a schoolmasters to guide people to the law. Cutting flesh was to teach people and guide them to the spirit of circumcision. All through the OT there the Lord communicates with man through the flesh. When Christ came he communicated through the heart and we are asked to not use the fleshly type commands any longer but to see the spiritual truth of those commands and respond to the spirit. We are now taught through the holy spirit, not through the flesh.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is truth in all scripture. We obey the law through Christ within us, not through our fleshly self. However, if we say that as an excuse to disobey, we are in error.

To study what scripture tells us about the law is a huge study, and if it is stopped at any one point, saying this is all scripture has to say about it, then the study is distorted. All scripture says about law and law obedience is truth, all must be accepted. Whenever you think that any one aspect of that study is the entire truth, you are in error. The law has MANY purposes, each purpose is truth.

I think the biggest differences in interpretation between Christians in regard to the covenants has to do with God saying he was wrong to give the first covenant. It comes down to our trust in the ways of our creator God and whether the first covenant was a mistake that our Father God made. If there truth in the first covenant when God created the second covenant to improve the first.

Your judgments of my posts as being "in a huff" is no so, I am stating what scripture says.

we don’t obey Moses law through Jesus we believe the gospel Jesus preached and walk in his word. It has zero to do with a single word Moses commanded israel not a single thing. It has everything to do with what Jesus the lord said

It’s strange that you can’t see it but then again Moses doctrine is a blindfold to the gospel as Paul said plainly

Sister can you acknowledge any of this or just disregard it and tell
Me about the value of theblaw of Moses ?

The law and the prophets were until John: (old covenant )

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” ( new covenant )

‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. But before faith came, we were kept under the law,( old covenant )

shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. ( new covenant )

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19, 23-24KJV‬‬

“Wherefore the law was ( old covenant ) our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come,( new covenant ) we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For Christ is the end of the law ( old covenant ) for righteousness to every one that believeth.”( new covenant )

‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” ( old covenant )

‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: ( new covenant ) for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

‭‭James‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, ( old covenant ) that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”( new covenant )

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:22 KJV‬‬

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ( old covenant ) ye are fallen from grace.”( new covenant )

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the law was given by Moses, ( old covenant )

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”( new covenant )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10KJV‬‬

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.( new covenant )

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”( old covenant )

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I through the law am dead to the law,( old covenant ) that I might live unto God. (New covenant ) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law ( old covenant ) by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another,( new covenant ) even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:56‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, ( old covenant ) which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-22, 24-26, 30-

I wish we could come to some better agreement it seems more like stubborn ness at this point because there’s so much that’s so clear but it’s like you just look past the scriptire and explain how Moses words and Jesus words go together

 

[Blik]

I wish we could come to some better agreement it seems more like stubborn ness at this point because there’s so much that’s so clear but it’s like you just look past the scriptire and explain how Moses words and Jesus words go together

You have stated clearly in this paragraph what our disagreement is. It is that Mose's words come from God and Jesus is God, it is, again, His word. I am very stubborn on that all scripture is truth from God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You have stated clearly in this paragraph what our disagreement is. It is that Mose's words come from God and Jesus is God, it is, again, His word. I am very stubborn on that all scripture is truth from God.

Yeah so those scriptures just don’t sink in huh ? Yeah moses law is for this purpose is what you can’t accept

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(Your looking at the law like it’s not for that purpose and you can’t come to this point because you won’t acknowledge what it’s for )

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-22‬ ‭

It’s like your trying to make a covenant that gives the knowledge of sin and holds people guilty into salvstion . That’s not what The purpose of the law it’s for what it says it’s for to condemn sinners and make thier sins known . That’s what every word on the law is for

“what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

why would a Christian want to put themself under a law meant to condemn them and impute sin ? When they have the gospel that is about repentance and remission of sins the exact opposite of the law ?

the law has a purpose it was to lead mankind tonthe knowledge that we’re sinners and have to have a savior it lead us to Jesus and his salvstion that’s all it can do

when you have a covenant about remission of sins and another about imputing sin they don’t go together they are for opposite purposes for opposite people

but honestly I don’t think your going to hear it so it’s sort of wasting both our time I know better already than to yoke myself or anyone to a law that will condemn them I would never go back to that place and it doesn’t seem like your willing to change your view either

so my hope is that on other subjects we can eventually discuss because a lot of what you say other than this particular subject I like a lot , usually find some word of edification when it’s not this subject

we simply aren’t on the same page I hope eventually we can get there but at this point maybe we should let it rest and see if later one of us moves

 

[Jocund]

I understand where you are coming from, but your paraphrasing God's commands under the first covenant gets a bit distorted.

God gave Moses fleshly type commands, not as law for God is spirit, but as a schoolmasters to guide people to the law. Cutting flesh was to teach people and guide them to the spirit of circumcision. All through the OT there the Lord communicates with man through the flesh. When Christ came he communicated through the heart and we are asked to not use the fleshly type commands any longer but to see the spiritual truth of those commands and respond to the spirit. We are now taught through the holy spirit, not through the flesh.

Is "do no work on the Sabbath" a fleshly command or a spiritual one in the OT?

 

[Blik]

Is "do no work on the Sabbath" a fleshly command or a spiritual one in the OT?

It comes from scripture in Genesis about why and how the Sabbath was created by the Lord, saying God completed his work ad simply looked at it. We are to follow God in that, so it must be spiritual.

 

[Blik]

Yeah so those scriptures just don’t sink in huh ? Yeah moses law is for this purpose is what you can’t accept

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(Your looking at the law like it’s not for that purpose and you can’t come to this point because you won’t acknowledge what it’s for )

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-22‬ ‭

It’s like your trying to make a covenant that gives the knowledge of sin and holds people guilty into salvstion . That’s not what The purpose of the law it’s for what it says it’s for to condemn sinners and make thier sins known . That’s what every word on the law is for

“what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

why would a Christian want to put themself under a law meant to condemn them and impute sin ? When they have the gospel that is about repentance and remission of sins the exact opposite of the law ?

the law has a purpose it was to lead mankind tonthe knowledge that we’re sinners and have to have a savior it lead us to Jesus and his salvstion that’s all it can do

when you have a covenant about remission of sins and another about imputing sin they don’t go together they are for opposite purposes for opposite people

but honestly I don’t think your going to hear it so it’s sort of wasting both our time I know better already than to yoke myself or anyone to a law that will condemn them I would never go back to that place and it doesn’t seem like your willing to change your view either

so my hope is that on other subjects we can eventually discuss because a lot of what you say other than this particular subject I like a lot , usually find some word of edification when it’s not this subject

we simply aren’t on the same page I hope eventually we can get there but at this point maybe we should let it rest and see if later one of us moves

It seems to me it would be a good thing to discuss our differences in interpretation, but only as long as it does not go into false accusations, or stating that one is a professional mindreader. If the discussion is a search for the truth it is good.

Accepting scripture is what I thought we were discussing, and my plea is for you to accept not only scripture you pick out as the "only" scripture on a subject but one of the scriptures that is truth. You keep repeating that the law has only one purpose and I keep repeating that there are many scriptures giving purposes for the law, ways we are to use the law and of these scriptures are truth not some true and some not true.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It seems to me it would be a good thing to discuss our differences in interpretation, but only as long as it does not go into false accusations, or stating that one is a professional mindreader. If the discussion is a search for the truth it is good.

Accepting scripture is what I thought we were discussing, and my plea is for you to accept not only scripture you pick out as the "only" scripture on a subject but one of the scriptures that is truth. You keep repeating that the law has only one purpose and I keep repeating that there are many scriptures giving purposes for the law, ways we are to use the law and of these scriptures are truth not some true and some not true.

Sister we have discussed this same thing many times . Christ is our everything Moses can't help.

 

[JStates]

I'm seeing a trend in some circles of trying to undermine the Pauline epistles. There's a devilish agenda to that. I hope you are not in that camp.

Paul - under divine inspiration - told his reader to follow him as he followed Christ.

There's no "Gospel of Jesus" versus "Gospel of Paul." There's Christ's Gospel, one Gospel, and the inspired Scriptures written by Paul further explain the inner workings of it.