Christians come from all walks of life, there is much to learn from every kind of Christian. We are coheirs to the promise that is Christ's through Abraham. It's a great thing to have many cultures that come together as one.
Cdan2 said: "But I always said having a gene or two in the pool does not make one Jewish."
You replied:
I have seen this argument as a justification for discrimination against Ethiopian Hebrews. The premise was that despite likely being descendants of Israel, because they were not raised in a culture led by the "authorized" priesthood that they were illegitimate and not rightful heirs (not "true" Jews).
You took my statement out of context and applied it to a completely different argument. I was saying just because I had some Jewish genetic markers didn't mean I was ethnically Jewish. Nor do I think the same way, act the same, etc.
As for the Ethopian Hebrews, the state of Israel at great expense and risk did a daring airlift and got most of them out. They were welcomed to Israel, already overcrowded with people that had to be educated and housed and fed. But they were taken in without question.
The irony is that the "orthodox" Judaic priesthood has been illegitimate for over 2000 years. The true head priest of the faith is Christ. Using the logic of "justification by culture plus ancestry", a Christian with Biblical Jewish heritage has the genuine right to that.
There has not been a Judaic priesthood since the Temple fell. There are as I understand priests in training for when the Temple is rebuilt. As to the right to that office, the "Christian with Biblical Jewish heritage" would have to be a Levite to qualify.
Either one is a descendant of Abraham and Israel or one is not. (And it may very well be the case that one isn't sure, or one does not know). If those genes come from that ancestry, that would make you a descendant, irrespective of whether you might feel out of place in the current culture run by an illegitimate priesthood.
Moot point. I do not claim the heritage because my genetic makeup is overwhelmingly Gentile. Also saying one is Jewish is heard by the listener as "Oh, he'll know everything about Judaism." I don't, and the more I study the more I know I don't.
Basically, you have been presented with the idea of what a Jew should be and have been asked to extrapolate from that what "counts" as a Jew.
Basically I married a Jewess and learned from that and earlier interactions with the Jews I met they were nothing like what I'd thought. Neither was their faith. But one thing I learned as a good Southern Baptist child and never forgot: the Jews were and are the chosen people of God; a people He created for Himself.
Your banana analogy is good. Judaism changed over the centuries even before the Christ. During the Babylonian captivity it really chanfed. There was no Temple, so the synagogue was instituted. Ok, but sadly also a lot of bad-Bab culture crept in. Naming of months, for example.
By the time of Jesus there were many sects, and some were bitter rivals for power. The Sadducees sold out to Rome and so were kept in power in the Temple. The Pharisees were by far the largest sect despite the Sadducees efforts to have them crucified by the hundreds at a time. And there were separatist sects like at Qumran and Masada. There were also some so different they could be called different Judaisms, like the Samaritans. One bunch, but a lotta different bananas there until they were shipped off to stores all around the Mediterranean in the late 2nd cen. Guess they musta' been ripe ...
You said I said: "adopting a child of color would make that child white"
I said: "But being adopted and/or intermarried doesn't make me any more Jewish in all other respects than my adopting a child of color would make that child white. Just a little more educated in their ways, knowledgable of the differences, and aware of many of the prejudices (which are not only factually wrong but wrongfully separate us)."
You replied:
Very baited language. I don't approve.
I'll apologize if I offended you just for the sake of decorum. However people today are too easily offended. I said nothing against any race. Brevity is fine, but don't change the meaning and try to present it in a bad light. The analogy was that living with someone of a different background makes one more aware of who they are and the challenges they face.
Race is very important in Talmudism because the Talmud requires observers to discriminate against other races. This is not the Christian approach and as a result the contrast is night and day. Labels like "white", "black", etc. are a very Talmudic way of thinking and often don't provide a very useful representation of what someone might be trying to describe. The terms especially don't work well when trying to describe someone of mixed ancestry and thus usually creates a tone in conversation that evokes racial prejudice and hatred by creating divisive perceptions. These aren't things we look for as Christians.
Where in the Talmud do you see that? And frankly I find a lot more prejudice in Christianity than in Judaism. Possibly that's because I am aound Christians much more than Jews, so it's likely I would. But trust me, Christians can be cruel, even to their own. Ever hear the saying "Christianity is the only army that kills its own wounded?" (That is a Christian saying, by the way). One reason I strayed a bit is when lining up with others to do battle with the enemy I got more wounds in the back than in front. Going alone at least I can know who is shooting at me.
No. Many are called but few are chosen. If anyone continues to reject Christ up to the judgement, they are not in Christ, they are not saved, and they are not chosen.
"For many are called, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:14
Yeah, I think I talked about that.
I said: "we believe we are Jews by adoption"
You replied:
Well, no and yes depending on a few things. A Christian ancestry could be indicative of a true Jewish heritage (the early Jewish converts were grafted back into the faith as much as the gentiles were grafted in). If you were born with Christian-Jewish heritage, it isn't possible to be "adopted" in, you just happen to be part of the continuum. We are "married" into righteousness through our relationship with Christ.
We're splitting hairs here. But here's one: if yu are a practicing pagan, no matter who or what your parents are, then you are not part of Israel or the Jewish Messiah. If then you are saved, you are grafted in. According to Paul the Jewish limbs cut off could be regrafted.
To suggest Christian faith "adopts" us into some echelon of the modern Talmudic Jewish faith is just flat out wrong. Talmudic Jews must leave the evil of the Talmud behind for them to become grafted into the tree that we are currently part of through Christ. A Talmudic Jew must find Christ to find salvation.
I never said that! Nor did I suggest it. Either you read a lot into what I said or I did a poor job explaining myself. We are grafted onto the Hebrew rootstalk. But when Paul gave that analogy there was no Talmud. There wasn't even a Mishna- only an Oral Tradition. And nothing in that addressed Christians or Christianity as there was no such thing at the time. The Talmud much later did have some negative things to say about Christianity. Understandable since Christians were raping, beating, and killing Jews; burning their synagogues and homes while plundering their possessions. I'd have a few bad things to say as well. But mostly the Talmud is concerned with governing their affairs, not bashing us.
There seems to be strange amounts of praise for an antiChristian culture and a strange conflation of Biblical Judaism and modern Talmudic Judaism, placing them on a pedestal and accepting their claims that they somehow represent a wisdom that our own ancestor were allegedly not privy too (even if they were the same ancestors!). How does this make sense?
Your statements, not mine. You accuse me of prejudice yet rail against Judaism. And it is your twisted (for lack of a better term) interpretations that make no sense. I merely suggest that we can learn much from the actual people who God chose to write the Bible. But I always said they need what, and Who we have as well: that being salvation through the Jewish Messiah who they reject.
You need to do some studying. You throw out terms like "Talmudic Judaism" when I suspect you have no idea what Talmud actually is. I don't study it, but I am familiar with it.
There is a movement in Evangelical churches especially, but really across the spectrum to look into the Hebraic roots of the faith. With this comes another look at the scriptural interpretations handed down by the church fathers. This to many is threatening. No longer can they just throw out long accepted false teachings, ideas, or slurs and not be called on it. So I expected the reaction you have. I'm not going to sit here and bash on you. All I ask is you reread what I said and if you have questions ask. I'll answer the best I can.
If you do have Talmudic references I'd like to see them. My DVD player is down and my Talmud (both Yerushalami and Bavli) is on that. But I can probably find it online and check it out.
Dan (couple of toes in the water but my backside firmly planted on Christ the Solid Rock at the shore) C
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