TONGUES is a precious gift from God

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PaulChristensen said:
What gave rise to much of the spiritual abuse from church people who saw themselves having authority over others was the emergence of the Shepherding/Discipleship movement out of Fort Laudedale, where believers were told to have a discipler to quide them. Although it is good to have a more experienced mentor, because the heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it, the discipling process was hijacked by those who aspired to have power and control over others. It meant that many uninformed, inexperienced believers were so much in bondage that they couldn't go to the store and buy a new pair of pants without their "shepherd's" permission. Believers were told where to go to church, what books to read, who to marry, whether they could go to university or not, etc. This caused widespread grief and harm to good believers, and many walked away from their churches and away from Christ Himself because of the spiritual abuse that this movement caused. Allied to it was the "covering" doctrine, which demanded that everyone had to have a "covering" of a particular church or person. This caused some smaller Christian independent groups to be hijacked by larger church denominations that demanded that these groups be under their "covering". In reality groups lost their independence and were forced to adopt the theology and practices of the larger denominational church. It happened quite a lot in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement.
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Anytime I hear something like that plan, I realize it can quickly turn into:
  • leaning on the flesh instead of the spirit
  • idolatry
  • and a suggestion that God forgot how to speak, lead, guide, teach, correct, and answer prayers.
BUT.... 2 things about that:
  1. Not everyone hears it that way and not every mentor abuses the position. Plus...
  2. I had a GREAT mentor/teacher when I first came to the Lord. But God set that up for me, not man.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
Ok, I think I CAN just summarize:

Once I got delivered from that crushing fear, etc. I couldn't wait to get back to work to really show them how it's done. (so to speak)

So I come in to work Monday morning to hear someone tell me that now...I have a supervisor... named "Lily".

I don't even remember who told me, but I remember internally turning to God and saying "NOW?!... NOW I get a supervisor?! Why NOW?? At any day before today I expected to be fired or even to die. But I just got delivered and you know that. I wanted to move forward and be a leader and a teacher...and this feels like I'm moving down."

He said "Teach them how to SERVE".

Fortunately, that contained the word "teach" so I had something to strive to accomplish and I was able to throw myself into the role of becoming the best servant I could possibly be (in order to teach by example).

Some things I had to learn.
  • If the owner/president tells you to do something equivalent to burning money, that's easy to obey...because it's HIS money. It's not the same when your boss tells you to do something like that. And, Yes, there's a correct way to handle that... not an either/or decision to make.
  • Submission is POWERFUL if wielded/used correctly.
    • Malicious obedience does not classify as "correct submission".
  • Authority is DANGEROUS if wielded/used incorrectly.
    • "...there is a time wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt." - Ecclesiastes 8:9 KJV. You can watch that happen if the person over you does not use their authority appropriately while you ARE using your submission appropriately.
  • You can (later, and if given a position of authority) use positions of authority to great effect because you understand how submission and authority are related. :)
  • You can also control things from the lowest position. I call it "leading from the back of the bus".
  • Wives would rejoice more and husbands would fear more if each understood their roles.
That's NOT all. But it's enough for now.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
I may be repeating what someone else has already said, but "tongues" is creepy. Freaks me out. It just seems so weird and bizarre . . . useless.
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I may be repeating what someone else has already said, but "tongues" is creepy. Freaks me out. It just seems so weird and bizarre . . . useless.
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"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" - 1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV

Tongues is one of those things. BUT... I understand the idea of feeling wierded out by it. I've had speaking in tongues for 30+ years, and I appreciate most any time there is an opportunity to pray with with others and in tongues. But I still don't like to specifically listen to them praying in tongues...because it doesn't make sense to my mind.

You may not be comfortable about tongues but I'll give you some real advice about it. Don't speak evil of the things you don't understand. If you don't want it, don't ask for it. But don't speak against it.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" - 2 Peter 2:12 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
KelbyofGod said:
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" - 1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV

Tongues is one of those things. BUT... I understand the idea of feeling wierded out by it. I've had speaking in tongues for 30+ years, and I appreciate most any time there is an opportunity to pray with with others and in tongues. But I still don't like to specifically listen to them praying in tongues...because it doesn't make sense to my mind.

You may not be comfortable about tongues but I'll give you some real advice about it. Don't speak evil of the things you don't understand. If you don't want it, don't ask for it. But don't speak against it.

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" - 2 Peter 2:12 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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My words were evil?
 
Peter and EVERY ONE of the 120-ish believers on the day of Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Ghost "began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance". - Acts 2:4 ... EVERY ONE of them. And Paul did too. No matter how much we don't like those facts.

Even though I've read all 4 gospels and considered what Jesus said. All of what he said didn't lead me to expect that when he poured out the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost that they would start speaking in tongues. But that's what it says they did.

That seems strange to us but again, God is doing things according to HIS plan, not ours. And historically what we think is going to happen is usually NOT the way he does it. That's why the scribes and Pharisees didn't accept Jesus when he arrived. Because he came in a way different than what they'd expected. And they failed to take it to God and ask until he answered them.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
KelbyofGod said:
Peter and EVERY ONE of the 120-ish believers on the day of Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Ghost "began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance". - Acts 2:4 ... EVERY ONE of them. And Paul did too. No matter how much we don't like those facts.

Even though I've read all 4 gospels and considered what Jesus said. All of what he said didn't lead me to expect that when he poured out the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost that they would start speaking in tongues. But that's what it says they did.

That seems strange to us but again, God is doing things according to HIS plan, not ours. And historically what we think is going to happen is usually NOT the way he does it. That's why the scribes and Pharisees didn't accept Jesus when he arrived. Because he came in a way different than what they'd expected. And they failed to take it to God and ask until he answered them.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Okay, but wait a second. You said that I spoke evil. Can you share with me what evil words I spoke?
 
KelbyofGod said:
Did I say you HAD spoken evil... Or did I say "Don't speak against it"? (which is advice to be used when considering possible future actions)
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When a parent says "Don't touch that stove!" (because it's hot) it's not a scolding for something they've already done. It's instructions on how to proceed in a way that will avoid unnecessary damage and pain. That's how I was saying it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
KelbyofGod said:
Did I say you HAD spoken evil... Or did I say "Don't speak against it"? (which is advice to be used when considering possible future actions)
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I see. So I didn't speak evil. You just wanted to make sure that I wouldn't do that in the future. Is this how you start off all conversations with folks? Or am I just a one-off?
 
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I see. So I didn't speak evil. You just wanted to make sure that I wouldn't do that in the future. Is this how you start off all conversations with folks? Or am I just a one-off?
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When it comes to things given by the Holy Ghost itself, and the person is somewhat non-supportive, it's probably representative of my standard next statement(s). So you're not a one-off. :)
 
KelbyofGod said:
When it comes to things given by the Holy Ghost itself, and the person is somewhat non-supportive, it's probably representative of my standard next statement(s). So you're not a one-off. :)
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@2ndTimothyGroup It's because the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy just means "speaking evil of or against"... It doesn't mean "disobedience against". WHY? Because the universe was created by WORDS spoken. Just because WE don't understand how powerful our words are...or how precious the Holy Ghost is... that doesn't mean God will overlook our ignorance if we decide to do that one unforgivable sin. So I advise people (when it comes to a manifestation of the Holy Ghost) to NOT speak against it, even if they don't understand it.

I hope that's at least clearly spoken even if it seems weird or extreme.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament." Watchman Nee

Source:

The Ministry of God's Word page 182 Electronic Version Page 191 Paper version CFC Publications.
 
Rhomphaeam said:
"Let us return to the principle of tongues. Why do we pay attention to this matter? Because in the New Testament Paul compares tongues with prophetic ministry. Why is not the speaking in tongues forbidden? Because it is profitable to the one who speaks in tongues. Yet why is it useless in the ministry of the word? For the simple reason that there is no human understanding and no human element involved in tongues. To speak in tongues depends entirely upon the Holy Spirit, that is, the person speaks with his own spirit as God’s Spirit gives him words. But it is nothing more. To our thinking, tongues may be better than prophecy, for is it not better to speak in God’s own words or in the words of the Holy Spirit? Nonetheless the Bible views tongues as being inferior to prophetic ministry. God places the latter above tongues. A prophetic ministry includes in it God’s word plus the prophet himself. In other words, the living water in the words flows out from the depths of the prophet; it does not pour down from heaven. This is a very fundamental principle in the New Testament." Watchman Nee

Source:

The Ministry of God's Word page 182 Electronic Version Page 191 Paper version CFC Publications.
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I agree with most of what he said in terms of relative importance to the church. So far I like and use this analogy best:

Which is better/greater... to feed yourself, or to feed others? Feeding others accomplishes more. But if you don't feed yourself, you'll die. So even though feeding others is greater, feeding yourself is still necessary.

Prophecy and tongues work similarly. Prophecy is speaking by the Spirit to the benefit (specifically "edification") of others. Speaking in tongues is speaking by the Spirit in a way that benefits ("edifies") only the speaker, as says 1 Corinthians 14:4 KJV:
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."​

What I didn't particularly agree with was what sounded like a suggestion that prophecy is generated by the prophet rather than flows through the prophet from the Spirit of God. As if it were generated by the supposed wealth of understanding of the prophet.

As I understand it, both prophecy and tongues are a combination of Man allowing his mouth to speak, but it is the Spirit of God providing the words. In the case of tongues it is to the benefit of the speaker. In the case of prophecy, it is to the benefit of the hearers.

It's not something I particularly intend to argue about. But I was/am curious if you took his explanation of prophecy the same way I did. Thanks for any clarification you are willing to share.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
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