Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Grandpa]

When I realized I am a sinner in need of salvation, and learned that Jesus died on the cross for my sins so that I could be saved...I called upon the Lord Jesus for salvation. What was my part? Realizing that I'm going to hell without Jesus. You call that saving yourself? It's the complete opposite. It's realizing I cannot do anything to save myself from my sins. I need a Savior.

No. I don't call that saving yourself.

I call that being led by the Lord to Salvation. Given the Gift of Righteousness and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


I am NOT saying that we don't have to do things and understand things in order to be saved. What I am saying is that it is God who initiates ALL the steps leading to Salvation.


YOU didn't come up with this Great Wisdom that CAUSED God to save you. God gave you Revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ as His Gift, drawing you to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Humility and Gratitude is what we learn when we gain wisdom and revelation in Christ. Given as His Gifts.

 

[John146]

No. I don't call that saving yourself.

I call that being led by the Lord to Salvation. Given the Gift of Righteousness and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


I am NOT saying that we don't have to do things and understand things in order to be saved. What I am saying is that it is God who initiates ALL the steps leading to Salvation.


YOU didn't come up with this Great Wisdom that CAUSED God to save you. God gave you Revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ as His Gift, drawing you to Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Humility and Gratitude is what we learn when we gain wisdom and revelation in Christ. Given as His Gifts.

God gives every man enough light to see him. If that man wants more light, God will give it to him. If man rejects the light that's been given, God may not send him more light.

Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can't will it or run it any other way. If man wants salvation, they must receive the gift of salvation that God has given...Jesus Christ.

 

[fredoheaven]

No, you don't come out and actually SAY what you mean.

I have to do that for you.


But you just said it again. OUR faith in Christ saves us. But it is Christ who Saves. From beginning to end. ALL the things that you think are CONDITIONS are actually gifts of God.

That NOT of yourselves, it is the Gift of God.

Here we go again, Yes, it is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God what? According to Paul's own commentary in Romans 6:23, the gift that is not of ourselves is "Salvation" or having eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm only going to reply to the last point of your post. The natural heart of man is evil until it is converted.

No, until the person responds to the gospel message and BELIEVES in Christ. Then God gives NEW BIRTH to the believer, and gives the believer eternal life and salvation and justification.

Until that happens, it is impossible for them to believe.

You have no verses that support your suppositions.

Read the below carefully.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

In that context, Paul was addressing mature believers. v.6 - God's wisdom (message of wisdom among the mature), v.10 (the deep things of God). What the natural man cannot receive are the advanced or deep doctrines. What they CAN receive is the gospel itself.

Otherwise, Titus 2:11 could NOT be written. "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

This verse actually refutes the foundation of calvinism. Salvation by grace offers salvation to everyone.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Sure. Man is born sinful. And Rom 10:9 says that man believes FROM the heart. Get over it.

[Eph 4:17-21 KJV]
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

I can't imagine how you misinterpret this passage.

 

[fredoheaven]

No, you don't come out and actually SAY what you mean.

I have to do that for you.


But you just said it again. OUR faith in Christ saves us. But it is Christ who Saves. From beginning to end. ALL the things that you think are CONDITIONS are actually gifts of God.

That NOT of yourselves, it is the Gift of God.

And because Christ saves those who believe in him and you won't believe then I cannot do otherwise. But God's words are clear, Jesus said "Verily, verily... therefore he is telling us the truth and lie. Of course, I couldn't trade the word of God with the mere opinions of men. Christ didn't say," You must have life everlasting to believe on me" He says.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

What verse shows that election is to salvation? I've provided many verses that specifically state the purpose of election is to service in those verses.

You have NOT done that for your own views.

That is a significant difference between our views. I have supported mine with Scripture, unlike yourself.

Romans 8 and Ephesians 2.

I've given you specific verses that prove that election is to service, and this is the best you can do in your defense???

If you believe that these 2 chapters clearly show that election is to salvation, then rather than just being really vague about it, please quote actual verses in these 2 chapters. Let's see what you have.

Overwhelming scriptural evidence that election is to salvation, which has service rolled in. Just like Justification and Righteousness.

OK, if there is "overwhelming evidence" that election is to salvation, how come you STILL haven't quoted a single verse that says it?

You CAN'T be elected to service unless you are SAVED.

Well, the Bible refutes this notion.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Are you going to argue that Judas was saved but then lost his salvation? As a calvinist, I know you can't do that.

EVERYONE who is SAVED has been elected to SERVICE.

EXACTLY!!!! That is precisely what Eph 1:4 says.

Glad you agree!!

 

[fredoheaven]

And because Christ saves those who believe in him and you won't believe then I cannot do otherwise. But God's words are clear, Jesus said "Verily, verily... therefore he is telling us the truth and lie. Of course, I couldn't trade the word of God with the mere opinions of men. Christ didn't say," You must have life everlasting to believe on me" He says.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

I mean Christ is telling us the truth and not a lie...my mistakes using a cellphone.

 

[fredoheaven]

The problem you have with the way you've interpreted the above verses is in the word "believe". Belief is given to those saved as a
fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born-again. No one can become born-again unless and until they have become saved. Please observe

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

A good verse to prove that these were already saved and they have possessed the Holy Spirit. The part thing which is incorrect is saying “no one can become born-again unless and until have become saved”. This thing is flatly false. To be born again by the word of God 1 Peter 1:23 and of the Holy Spirit John 3:8 is the same as those saved people having life everlasting through faith in Christ John 3:16-18

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[rogerg]

"Verily, verily... therefore he is telling us the truth and lie. Of course, I couldn't trade the word of God with the mere opinions of men. Christ didn't say," You must have life everlasting to believe on me" He says.

Did you read John 6:37, 39, 40,44,45,46 &47 too?
To summarize, they tell us that only those whom the Father specifically chose and gave to Christ have everlasting life --that everyone sent will be raised on the last day to it.
No one besides those drawn can come to Christ, though those of the "not drawn" may think so according to man's understanding of salvation.
Everyone drawn to Christ, cannot, not come to Christ.
Everyone drawn (and only those drawn) will be taught by God and by that learn of the Father.
Everyone drawn cannot, not, learn of the Father.
Everyone not drawn, cannot come to Christ, cannot learn of the Father, and will not receive everlasting life.
Verse 47 confirms that belief is as a result of having been given everlasting life (verses 39,40, 44 47)
which is a result of having been drawn of the Father.
Nowhere do those verses mention anything needed (to be done) by the recipient - God and Christ do it all.
These verses explain all aspects of how someone is saved.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[Jhn 6:40 KJV]
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:44-47 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[Grandpa]

God gives every man enough light to see him. If that man wants more light, God will give it to him. If man rejects the light that's been given, God may not send him more light.

Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can't will it or run it any other way. If man wants salvation, they must receive the gift of salvation that God has given...Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:15-18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Grandpa]

And because Christ saves those who believe in him and you won't believe then I cannot do otherwise. But God's words are clear, Jesus said "Verily, verily... therefore he is telling us the truth and lie. Of course, I couldn't trade the word of God with the mere opinions of men. Christ didn't say," You must have life everlasting to believe on me" He says.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

That's a statement of fact.

Not a condition that people can WORK for, or cause in themselves, in order to EARN Salvation.

 

[John146]

Romans 9:15-18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Yep, that was my reference. If man wants to receive God's mercy, he has to do it God's way. Man can't will it or run it any other way. God has provided the way unto mercy through Jesus Christ.

 

[rogerg]

A good verse to prove that these were already saved and they have possessed the Holy Spirit. The part thing which is incorrect is saying “no one can become born-again unless and until have become saved”. This thing is flatly false. To be born again by the word of God 1 Peter 1:23 and of the Holy Spirit John 3:8 is the same as those saved people having life everlasting through faith in Christ John 3:16-18

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The verse says that it is by the "word of God" -- not through the person's actions or choice. The "word of God " is He that "liveth and abideth" - not of he who is to receive it; that is, that which makes a person born-again is outside of the control of the person being born-again. Do you believe it is possible to be born again without having first been saved as a prerequisite? In other words, do you think someone can make themselves born again?

oh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Sorry, I don't follow your line of reasoning by using the above verses. If v3:6 is saying born of the Spirit is spirit, then since no one can give to themselves spiritual life, just as they can't give to themselves physical life, it is up to God

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

What verse shows that election is to salvation? I've provided many verses that specifically state the purpose of election is to service in those verses.

You have NOT done that for your own views.

That is a significant difference between our views. I have supported mine with Scripture, unlike yourself.

I've given you specific verses that prove that election is to service, and this is the best you can do in your defense???

If you believe that these 2 chapters clearly show that election is to salvation, then rather than just being really vague about it, please quote actual verses in these 2 chapters. Let's see what you have.


OK, if there is "overwhelming evidence" that election is to salvation, how come you STILL haven't quoted a single verse that says it?


Well, the Bible refutes this notion.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Are you going to argue that Judas was saved but then lost his salvation? As a calvinist, I know you can't do that.


EXACTLY!!!! That is precisely what Eph 1:4 says.

Glad you agree!!

I've shown you SEVERAL times but you don't seem to understand. You just seem to want to spew your error over and over for no purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Everyone who is saved has been elected to service.

 

[rogerg]

Yep, that was my reference. If man wants to receive God's mercy, he has to do it God's way. Man can't will it or run it any other way. God has provided the way unto mercy through Jesus Christ.

And so verse 9:16 means ? It completely contradicts your assumption.

 

[John146]

And so verse 9:16 means ? It completely contradicts your assumption.

Man does not will it. Man does not run it. God shows mercy. If man wants God's mercy, man must do it God's way. God's way is through Jesus Christ.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[John146]

Everyone who is saved has been elected to service.

Yes! Everyone who is saved is elected to service, not before one is saved. Election takes place after. Jesus Christ was God's servant. Did Jesus Christ need salvation?

 

[rogerg]

Man does not will it. Man does not run it. God shows mercy. If man wants God's mercy, man must do it God's way. God's way is through Jesus Christ.

Wait.... think about what you're saying. The verse says it can only be by God's choosing to show mercy to whom He will. If it is dependent upon man doing anything, then that would invalidate the verse as it couldn't be exclusively of God's mercy, but of man's work.

 

[John146]

Wait.... think about what you're saying. The verse says it can only be by God's choosing to show mercy to whom He will. If it is dependent upon man doing anything, then that would invalidate the verse as it couldn't be exclusively of God's mercy, but of man's work.

The word choose is not in the verse.

 

[soberxp]

The word choose is not in the verse.

I think there is a difference. If people in this world never know God, and then God has mercy on people according to his own mercy, then this is not God's grace and glory.

But since we knew God from the Bible, then mercy of God is God's grace and glory.