Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Diakonos]

a lifetime of sin (70 years) does not = eternity of punishment.

On the contrary, eternal sin = eternity of punishment

““And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin” (John 16:8)

““You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 7:51)

"whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit...is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 3:29)​

This is the heart condition of everyone who ultimately rejects forgiveness offered by God.

 

[Journeyman]

It is true that God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)...

However, for those who do not repent now or who never will repent...

God reserves His wrath for them (Nahum 1:2-3).

Nahum goes on to say the unsaved are like dry stubble (vs.10).

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire,
So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psa.68:2

The lof isn't an eternal holding tank for the lost. It's the presence of our Lord Jesus on judgement day. Compare these,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet.....These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev.19:20

Peter tells us when Christ appears again, the universe will be engulfed in fire. That's one big lake!

 

[Runningman]

That, again, is wishful thinking on your part.

It says the smoke rises forever. Fact. No need for wishful thinking. Actually, I wouldn’t care if the Bible taught eternal conscious torment but it doesn’t. I’ll accept anything the Bible says no problem.

I won't be needing luck because I have sound doctrine and believe in the truth.

Just what the devil loves, a Christian who thinks he can never be wrong about anything. At least you are confident, but cultists are confident too. You really should have a little humility in your approach to this. Good luck.

How is that a gamble? If I am wrong, there is no skin off my back; and if I am right, I have heeded the warnings given to me and there is also no skin off my back

You’ve rejected what the plain text of the scripture say and created a sort of anti-gospel whereby sinners receive eternal life for rejecting Christ. You just don’t realize it yet. Maybe this is the strong delusion the Bible spoke of.

Sound doctrine is important (1 Timothy 4:16, Titus 1:9)...and I would say that it is defined as orthodox teaching.

Amen and I’m doing good in that department.

I will therefore believe in orthodox teaching unless I find that there is no Bible to substantiate it and that there is also Bible that contradicts it.

Me too!

 

[justbyfaith]

The lof isn't an eternal holding tank for the lost.

The nature of the lake of fire is described in Revelation 20:10, that those who are there will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And that more than the beast and the false prophet will be there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

It is a place of everlasting punishment; it consists of everlasting fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, I wouldn’t care if the Bible taught eternal conscious torment <snip>. I’ll accept anything the Bible says no problem.

Then you should accept the teaching of the Bible for it teaches eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire.

Their worm dieth not (Mark 9:42-48); what makes you think they will?

 

[Runningman]

The nature of the lake of fire is described in Revelation 20:10, that those who are there will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And that more than the beast and the false prophet will be there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

It is a place of everlasting punishment; it consists of everlasting fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

While sorbets may go to the lake of fire, you must admit the plain text of Revelation 20:10 says three specific persons will be tormented day and night forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet. That’s sola scriptura.

There is not another verse that so plainly states anyone gets tormented forever. The only about the “smoke of their torment rising forever” says the smoke rises forever. Carefully read the text of the scriptura and stop trying to add interpretation to them. If you do that your understanding of the Bible will change dramatically.

 

[Runningman]

Then you should accept the teaching of the Bible for it teaches eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire.

Their worm dieth not (Mark 9:42-48); what makes you think they will?

But the Bible doesn’t teach that. Revelation 20:10 applies to three persons.

Mark 9:42-48 says only the worms don’t die, not the sinners. Again, that doesn’t help the view you’re preaching because it’s a false doctrine.

What’s your take on the plethora of verses that say the wicked are destroyed? I quoted 23 to your earlier.

 

[Journeyman]

The nature of the lake of fire is described in Revelation 20:10, that those who are there will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And that more than the beast and the false prophet will be there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

It is a place of everlasting punishment; it consists of everlasting fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

I understand what you're saying. For many years I believed the same thing. I think a big problem is that Christians are unwilling to look at the other side. All scripture must agree, but for a long time, I was unwilling to examine passages that seemingly contradicted what I had been taught. I try not to do that anymore.

 

[justbyfaith]

But the Bible doesn’t teach that. Revelation 20:10 applies to three persons.

Mark 9:42-48 says only the worms don’t die, not the sinners. Again, that doesn’t help the view you’re preaching because it’s a false doctrine.

What’s your take on the plethora of verses that say the wicked are destroyed? I quoted 23 to your earlier.

If everyone is reduced to ashes, the worms would eventually die of starvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Revelation 20:10 applies to three persons.

Revelation 20:10 reveals to us the nature of the lake of fire; that those who are cast therein will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That more than the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be cast there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

 

[justbyfaith]

What’s your take on the plethora of verses that say the wicked are destroyed?

I will interpret to you 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and in that I hope your question will be answered.

"everlasting destruction",

as defined by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x;

where y = the wholeness of the individual and x = the time elapsed.

Here, y continues to decrease as x increases but y never reaches zero.

Even when x = 1,000,000, y = 1/1,000,000.

 

[posthuman]

False. The only thing that lasts forever there is the smoke.

Smoke is aerated dust.
Your body is dust.
If you are burned up and your smoke remains forever, then your body does - it has only changed forms, not ceased to exist.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Emotions are given to us by God. I believe God feels things on a level we haven't experienced. To Peter, his concern was for the preservation of life, but life doesn't consist of just the flesh. He learned as we all do.

Yes, I agree. Let the Holy Spirit separate the emotions - from those of the earth from those of the sea.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I don't remember seeing anyone teaching "immortality of the soul". That has only been used as a straw man argument.

You participant in argument the decay in the Garden of Eden Post - decay in the beginning and federal headship. It was argued that man was made perfect vs good. The argument was continued here in this OP. It was established that the persistence of the human soul was the basis of interpretation of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life.
Also did you not intimate this in the post #510 as you contended that immortality it was not contingent on God from my reckoning?
Without the logical necessity of a hell, the doctrine then becomes an assumption of the Person of the Most High. That is impossible and forbidden outside of the Scriptures.

So no, it is not a strawman. It is the main point of contention wrt hell. All interpretations hell conform to either one or the other. They don`t mix.

 

[Runningman]

Smoke is aerated dust.
Your body is dust.
If you are burned up and your smoke remains forever, then your body does - it has only changed forms, not ceased to exist.

Touché! That’s infallible.

Seems a bit far-reaching that you felt the need to turn the wicked into disembodied airborne particulates, weeping and gnashing their teeth somehow, rather than just letting the Bible stand on its own merit and say they were put to death via destruction.

that’s why I assume you’re joking. That’s clever

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

...
cf. Isaiah 9:6.

They are names of the Messiah not to God
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/9-6.htm

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
...
Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller. The construction is either construct followed by genitive—“a wonder of a Counseller” (cf. Genesis 16:12), or acc. governed by participle—“one who counsels wonderful things.” Cf. “wonderful in counsel” (of Jehovah) in ch. Isaiah 28:29. On counsel as the function of a king, see Micah 4:9.

The mighty God] (’êl Gibbôr) either “God-like Hero” or Hero-God. The second is to be preferred, because the title is applied to Jehovah in ch. Isaiah 10:21 (cf. Deuteronomy 10:17; Jeremiah 32:18). These two titles ascribe to the Messiah the two fundamental virtues of a ruler, wisdom and strength (cf. ch. Isaiah 11:2), both in superhuman measure. The predicate of divinity (like that of eternity in the next name) is not to be understood in the absolute metaphysical sense; it means that the divine energy works through him and is displayed in his rule (cf. Isaiah 11:2 ff.; Mi. Isaiah 5:4; Zechariah 12:8). In the fulfilment the words receive a larger sense.
...
The everlasting Father] lit. Father of Eternity. The translation “Father of booty” is grammatically unimpeachable (see ch. Isaiah 33:23; Genesis 49:27), but the ideas of fatherhood and booty form an unnatural association. “Father of Eternity” describes the king, not as “possessor of the attribute of eternity” but as one who continually acts as a father to his people.

Prince of Peace] Cf. ch. Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 11:4 ff.; Micah 5:5; Zechariah 9:10.

The Messiah is Wise beyond this world, He is a Hero of Godlike Stature, He is the Father of Eternity - Firstborn of all Creation and Resurrection and hence Father of Eternity, and Prince of Peace - King of the Iron Scepter.

The Holy Spirit does not cause me to wail and gnash my teeth.

The Spirit of God as an unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:16John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but One more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Heb 12:28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. 29“For our God is a consuming fire.”

The jungle under the sun causes you to wail and gnash your teeth. The fire is from the sun as one wails for tammuz. The Unquenchable Fire will either make you refined gold or fill you with Fear.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

which is something the KJV translates 3 different words as.

i'm not kjv-only, tho i respect people who are. i almost always quote nkjv these days and that's partly because of how i've grown to respect them and learn from them, and partly because nkjv capitalizes pronouns referring to God, so i don't have to go and edit it, because that's a personal hangup of my own. you'll notice maybe i hardly ever capitalize anything except the name of god and things referring to Him. to me, that's not a whole lot different than the kjv 'faction' ((? lack of better term)) - we're family.
what you're bring up there is something that is tough for them - i usually like to point out how much 2 sparrows currently sell for, or what the actual historical & demographic usage of a farthing is. that's subtle, but their argument is based on absolutisms, so it's tested at the least of the constraints.
the people here who have strong beliefs about the kjb, i've been around the block with a number of times. i love them and i hope they love me. i don't need to go over all that business again, but at the same time hey wow that's a good point you're making. i never thought of that!

but on that point, the NT uses gehenna and hades and the lake of fire for at least 2 ((i think 2; gehenna = lake of fire / second death)) different things. that's not "two hells" and it is "two hells" or maybe it's neither because we need a definition of hell. hell isn't a Biblical word. it's an English-language Biblical word. that's different.

hi - i'm post; i'm a mathematician. kind of the de-facto CC mathematician. something post says often is that we can't have a discussion without agreed on, specific definitions of what we discuss. that's a math-fact© -- you can't even begin to solve 1 + 2 = ____ until you know what 1 is, what 2 is, what + is, and what = is




anyway, you're absolutely right -- what this is really about is the persistence/immortality of the soul. whether everyone utterly ceases to exist when the body dies (( lol no, i mean, wow, Bible much? is 'life' a merely fleshly thing? )) and whether God's eventual ((time-reference)) eternal judgement is something the soul undergoes and experiences forever or whether it's something that only occurs for a comparative instant and then it's over.

i'm trying to take a day or two off for the weekend, for breathing space. God seems to be working to bring that to pass - and maybe we can spend more time talking then. meanwhile i appreciate your patience with me ((i.e. thanks for reading my drivel)) and i really do admire you distilling the whole conversation down to its stochastic elements in your other comment.

I am delighted we can agree. Meeting of minds is part of the communing of the spirits. Looking forward to future discussions with you. I wish you well on your time off and contemplations.

 

[Journeyman]

Mark 9:42-48 says only the worms don’t die,

The thought of worms not dying, or unquenchable fire should be understood as total consumption, not prolonged suffering. It wouldn't have been necessary for our Lord to add that the worm won't die or the fire be quenched " until they've accomplished their task."
The people hearing Jesus would have easily known this.
It's the same thing with turning something into smoke. The common understanding is smoke vanishes away, not smoke is sitll something.

 

[Runningman]

The thought of worms not dying, or unquenchable fire should be understood as total consumption, not prolonged suffering. It wouldn't have been necessary for our Lord to add that the worm won't die or the fire be quenched " until they've accomplished their task."
The people hearing Jesus would have easily known this.
It's the same thing with turning something into smoke. The common understanding is smoke vanishes away, not smoke is sitll something.

yes I certainly agree with the point they are making and how you presented it, but for the sake of discussion, I’m showing literalists how the scripture literally says things like only the worms never die, only the smoke rises forever, only three persons are tormented forever. Not even going into examples from the Bible where forever didn’t mean forever.

 

[Absolutely]

Your Bible interpretation and mangling of scripture is a hot mess. We don’t just throw random verses together that talk about fire and punishment when they don’t even match the argument you’re trying to support.

Nail in the coffin 1: The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus doesn’t say it lasts forever, the rich man was not weeping, or gnashing his teeth. While engulfed in flames he was completely cognizant and arguably more polite than you’ve been in this thread.

Nail in the coffin 2: Revelation 20:10 says that only three persons are tormented forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet.

Nail in the coffin 3: Hebrews 2:14 says the devil is destroyed.

Nail in the coffin 4: Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 say the lake of fire is the second death.

Nail in the coffin 5: The eternal flames are the unquenchable fires of the lake of fire. The eternal punishment is death.

Your false doctrine has been nailed closed and buried. I’m done arguing with intellectually dishonest people.

Nail 3 is the only one correct.
The others are " doesnt say" , conjecture, and assuming the lazarus story is a parable.

No coffin
Nails laying on floor rusting out