Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[brightfame52]

justpassingthrough

Do you believe people are are saved without ever hearing the good news of Jesus Christ?

Yes if we are speaking of the eternal realm and or the legal relm, but no if speaking of the spiritual relm. Unconditional election takes place in the eternal relm.

 

[rogerg]

I provided verses that biblically and logically grounded. Human logic can not withstand the scripture of truth.

Sorry, but I must have missed it. Would you refer me to the post number(s)?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Oh, I'll happily answer you. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are saved by God BEFORE we can hear the Gospel spiritually. In fact,
we cannot truly hear the Gospel with spiritual ears, until and unless we're saved/born again. Otherwise, it would be our work, not Gods.

Thus you are promoting a “Christ-less” salvation, in which we are saved apart from hearing and believing Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[rogerg]

Do you believe people are are saved without ever hearing the good news of Jesus Christ?

After thinking about your question further I became dissatisfied with my reply to you. I had overlooked that you included the word
"ever" in it. So, if you were asking if they would never, ever hear the word after becoming saved, no, I don't think that to be correct.
I believe that at some point, in some way, during or after their salvation, those who become saved are exposed to the word and can hear it with spiritual ears, but that hearing is not what saved them. They are saved because, and only because, God had chosen them for such. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Why do you think Christ said this:

[Mat 13:13-14 KJV] 13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

and this:

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Here is what Christ said —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The condition for salvation is to believe.





Your theory is not from God.





JPT

 

[rogerg]

Thus you are promoting a “Christ-less” salvation, in which we are saved apart from hearing and believing Jesus Christ.

Yeah, you've said that to me several times before and it makes no sense. I am the one who says that Christ is the Savior and that He alone must do the saving. How is that "Christ-less"? Everything I say is based upon Christ.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yeah, you've said that to me several times before and it makes no sense. I am the one who says that Christ is the Savior and that He alone must do the saving. How is that "Christ-less"? Everything I say is based upon Christ.

How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

JPT

 

[rogerg]

Here is what Christ said —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The condition for salvation is to believe.

The problem you have with the way you've interpreted the above verses is in the word "believe". Belief is given to those saved as a
fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born-again. No one can become born-again unless and until they have become saved. Please observe

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The problem you have with the way you've interpreted the above verses is in the word "believe". Belief is given to those saved as a
fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born-again. No one can become born-again unless and until they have become saved. Please observe

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Please answer the question from the scripture.



How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[rogerg]

How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?

Because it is not of the work or action of the person being saved. It is through Christ and not of themselves. Christ is the Saviour.

 

[rogerg]

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Sure. Their belief is not what has saved them. Their belief comes AFTER, FROM, and BY salvation and becoming born again.
No one can truly believe UNTIL that happens.

I'm going to grab a quick cup of coffee (or two - it's early in Cali) but I'd like to come back to finish my reply to you if that's ok

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, I'll happily answer you. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are saved by God BEFORE we can hear the Gospel spiritually.

And yet, there are NO verses that teach such a silly thing. The very idea would deny the role of faith in salvation. And the Bible DOES say that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

It does NOT say "saved by grace through election", which is what your view really is.

In fact,
we cannot truly hear the Gospel with spiritual ears, until and unless we're saved/born again. Otherwise, it would be our work, not Gods.

Another non-fact. Just another opinion by calvinists. And they have NO verses that support their notions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you think Christ said this:

[Mat 13:13-14 KJV] 13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

and this:

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Easy. Jesus was referring to those who were refusing to believe. Because God already knows who will refuse to believe, it is those people that God gives them faulty ears and eyes.

If you don't believe that people actually REFUSE to believe, here are 2 verses that show that refusing is a free choice.

Acts 14:2 and 19:9.

 

[rogerg]

Please answer the question from the scripture.



How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?



How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

To continue a bit further - the belief/faith of those saved begins after salvation and continues and increases within them throughout their lifetime by the Holy Spirit. Take Saul/Paul as an example. Saul did not first bring himself to faith in Christ and from that was then saved. He was saved and then came to faith. Saul was on his way to kill and imprison Christians when, though unsolicited, salvation through Christ happened to him - he had not the slightest thought or idea of becoming saved nor of wanting it to happen. He received faith and wisdom later on when given the Holy Spirit, by which, the scales fell from his eyes, but AFTER being saved, not before. He and those saved are given the spirit of wisdom from God as a result of salvation.

[Eph 1:17 KJV] 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

[Act 9:17-18, 20 KJV]
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. ...
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

I know that after I post this, I'll think of a bunch more that I should have said and verses I should have posted, but I guess
this will do for now. If I do think of more, I'll reply again. Happy to discuss with you what I've posted so far.

 

[rogerg]

How can someone be saved who has never heard of Christ and the Gospel of His salvation?

Not to be a pain in the you know what, but I should have included that we are saved by Christ's faith(fulness) to God the Father - that Christ was faithful to Him and not by our faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not to be a pain in the you know what, but I should have included that we are saved by Christ's faith(fulness) to God the Father - that Christ was faithful to Him and not by our faith.

If you are correct, then please explain why Jesus said this:

Matt 9:22 - Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
Matt 9:29 - Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”;
Matt 15:28 - Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Mark 5:34 - He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”
Mark 10:52 - “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

In EVERY case, Jesus noted THEIR faith. iow, personal faith from THEM.

And this is why: Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Faith is personal. It comes from the heart.

 

[rogerg]

And this is why: Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Faith is personal. It comes from the heart.

I'm only going to reply to the last point of your post. The natural heart of man is evil until it is converted. Until that happens, it is impossible for them to believe. Read the below carefully.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Eph 4:17-21 KJV]
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

 

[brightfame52]

Oh, I'll happily answer you. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are saved by God BEFORE we can hear the Gospel spiritually. In fact,
we cannot truly hear the Gospel with spiritual ears, until and unless we're saved/born again. Otherwise, it would be our work, not Gods.

Absolutely correct, for it takes spiritual life to be able to hear spiritually, hence Jesus said to spiritually dead jews on this occasion this Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He that is of God means He that is Born of God see Jn 1:13

 

[Grandpa]

I'd like to introduce you to 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your argument is specious. No one is arguing that man saves himself through faith. That is ludicrous.

The Bible is clear: God saves those who believe.

What the Bible doesn't say is that God saves those He has elected.

What verse shows that election is to salvation? I've provided many verses that specifically state the purpose of election is to service in those verses.

You have NOT done that for your own views.

That is a significant difference between our views. I have supported mine with Scripture, unlike yourself.

Romans 8 and Ephesians 2.

Overwhelming scriptural evidence that election is to salvation, which has service rolled in. Just like Justification and Righteousness.



You CAN'T be elected to service unless you are SAVED. EVERYONE who is SAVED has been elected to SERVICE.

 

[Grandpa]

Who says, we are the ones that “SAVE OURSELVES through OUR FAITH”? Our faith in Christ saves us. No one is saving himself when he placed his faith in Christ. It is Christ who saves. Actually, that’s what Christ says and your disbelief or full rejection of what Christ says saves no one. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Another John 3:15 says That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Because Calvinism denies these and therefore errs of the truth of the scripture.

No, you don't come out and actually SAY what you mean.

I have to do that for you.


But you just said it again. OUR faith in Christ saves us. But it is Christ who Saves. From beginning to end. ALL the things that you think are CONDITIONS are actually gifts of God.

That NOT of yourselves, it is the Gift of God.