Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[posthuman]

Do you just only read the paragraph synopsis?

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Where is the sheep and goats in devil and his angels? Maybe the goat is the devil like that satan icon thing and his angels are the black sheeps...er... I'll let you explain.

​

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. ​

(Matthew 25:31-32)​

​

all the nations.
people.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’​

Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​

(Matthew 25:41-46)​

​

​

these nations - people from every nation - go into eternal punishment or into eternal life.
He judges us, like sheep and goats, dividing us.

those He knows, into aeons-of-aeons life.
those He never knew, into aeons-of-aeons punishment, in the place prepared for the devil and his angels.
as earlier pointed out, if anyone wants to change the meaning of the word eternal here - well it's exactly the same word describing life for the sheep as punishment for the goats. so that's an issue.
that's where yes, you get a connection to the 3rd of the stars swept by the dragon's tail - because the lake of burning fire and sulphur is prepared for them. but people, living souls, go there too.

the lake of fire is not cast into the lake of fire.
the first death is cast into the second death.

is this conceptually hard?
or do people just not like it?

 

[Duckybill]

​

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. ​

(Matthew 25:31-32)​

​

all the nations.
people.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’​

Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​

(Matthew 25:41-46)​

​

​

these nations - people from every nation - go into eternal punishment or into eternal life.
He judges us, like sheep and goats, dividing us.

those He knows, into aeons-of-aeons life.
those He never knew, into aeons-of-aeons punishment, in the place prepared for the devil and his angels.
as earlier pointed out, if anyone wants to change the meaning of the word eternal here - well it's exactly the same word describing life for the sheep as punishment for the goats. so that's an issue.
that's where yes, you get a connection to the 3rd of the stars swept by the dragon's tail - because the lake of burning fire and sulphur is prepared for them. but people, living souls, go there too.

the lake of fire is not cast into the lake of fire.
the first death is cast into the second death.

is this conceptually hard?
or do people just not like it?

Don't forget this part.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[John146]

Let's ask Genesis 2:7 KJV:

"And God formed man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Dust of the ground BECAME a living Soul."​

Does it not say the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life? Sure it does.

So, if the Soul comes into existence as a consequnece of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, when the Body and the Breath of Life disunion, can the Soul continue to exist?

No more than Light can continue to exist when the Electrical Current is removed from a Bulb, right or wrong?

Wow! You read a lot into Genesis 2 that’s not there.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Isaiah 10:18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[TheLearner]

Then according to you, no one gets the destroyed and everyone lives forever. I couldn't disagree more. I could probably write a lengthy dissertation explaining why that's the wrong way to understand the Bible. But to each their own. I have all of the support I need to believe in death for the wicked and eternal life for the righteous.

I am curious why God wipes away our tears?

 

[TheLearner]

No, you really don't. For being called TheLearner, you're unteachable and condescending, spamming the forum with snide pictures about context matters.

Read these carefully.

Psalm 1:6
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 92:7
7When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Ecclesiates 9:5
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

Malachi 4:1, 3
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 20:14
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I am glad you like the pictures. One does not seek to learn false doctrines like you believe brother.

Again, you use proof texts of physical death except for those related to judgement time.

http://westliberty.edu/health-and-safety/files/2012/08/Sulfur.pdf

 

[TheLearner]

.
The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is currently being held in a secure location
awaiting trial at the event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where he'll be reunited
with his body along with everyone else on the wrong side of Hades-- he may
have a long wait for his trial.

According to the Census Bureau, something like 7,000 people of all ages,
races, and genders die every day in the USA.

At one time it was estimated that roughly 28% of those deaths are under
the age of 19 so that we can count 5,040 of those daily deaths as
responsible adults.

Jesus said that many are called and few chosen. If we reckon the many to
be somewhere around 51% then we can estimate that 2,570 of of those
5,040 join the rich man every day of the week-- 24/7/365 --adding up to
938,050 condemned souls in one year; and that's just from the USA; not
even reckoning with rest of the globe's population.

If we were to arbitrarily allot each trial ½ hour at Rev 20:11-15, it would
take approximately 469,025 hours to try all 938,050 of the USA souls; or
19,543 twenty-four hour days totaling 53½ years. I'm pretty sure the rich
man will be standing in line for quite a bit longer than that when we take
into consideration the entire population of Hades going all the way back to
the days of Cain and Abel.

I once commented to a Christian friend that it seems almost impossible that
God will ever get around to judging every man and woman who has ever
lived. My friend replied: Well; he has plenty of time.
_

There was a study in Colorado about 20-29 year old people getting serious colon cancer. Over 2,000 deaths are predicted this year.

 

[TheLearner]

but James does not define it as non-existence. the body returns to dust, and dust isn't nothing - neither does the spirit cease to exist, but returns to God.
physical death is not the only way death is described in scripture - look at Matthew 8:22, how many definitions of death are there? and what is God's definition of 'dead' or 'living' in Matthew 22:32?

the topic is not as simplistic as some in this thread make it - it is certainly a mistake to think that because the body dies, the person ceases to be. life-beyond-physical-death is a fundamental precept of our faith.

I agree brother. the text only defines death as separation of body and soul.

 

[Duckybill]

Luke 16
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

To believe otherwise could be eternally fatal.

 

[TheLearner]

Yes, your quoting the Spirit and meaning of the Scriptures. "Praise the lord, eternal torture for all!"
You don't speak in the manner of Jesus or the deacons as per the bible.
Luke 23:34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Acts 7:59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Judgement day is something to look forward, may God's Will be done. I guess hate was a strong word, but you did accuse me violating Matt 5:22. It was a "lack of a better word" moment. Ignore it then.

Liars. All of them will be measured - Did he speak against God? Blasphemy of God. Did he speak against the Scriptures? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Did he speak against Jesus? antichrist. Simple as counting.

Hell is full of people who don't beleve in hell. Kind of ironic. But whatever turns you on.

Wash forehead and hands, before the thresher comes. It's reaping time soon. I hope. Oh it has nothing to do with you. It will happen whether you like it or not.



Luke 16 verse by verse with paraphrase
19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
>>>> There is a rich man under the sun. "under the sun" means in the "absence of God" Ecc 1:2-3
There is a guy whose name is "God will save". Eleazar is the hebrew for Lazarus"
https://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Eleazar.html
Crumbs meant for the dogs he must compete with the dogs. The dogs even lick his sores like a beast. Mercy of the world is demonstrated by the rich man Mark 7:27

22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
>>>> Eleazar dies and is carried to Abraham's bosom. Abraham the archetype friend of God. Isaiah 41:8
His wife is Sarah who is our mother by analogy. We are the children of Promise made between Abraham and God. Gal 4:23-24
The rich man in life that lived without God, finds himself separated from God in the afterlife. He is tormented (Isaiah 59:1-2)

24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
>>>> Eleazar is surrounded waters of Salvation but the rich dude is parched in the Absence of God. Isaiah 12:2-3

25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony.
>>>> Under the sun, the rich spent luxuriously, while in life Eleazar kept the faith as God will heal him. The rich man was not worthy of the Promise. So separation of the Spirit means dusrt in death while Eleazar was Saved. In life he was with the Spirit so in death the Spirit was with him. Eccle 12:7

26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
>>>> Death and the grave separates us. The Living (Saved) do not talk with the dead. Leviticus 20:27

27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
>>>> "Let me have a second chance, resurrect Eleazar to get the message to his brethren". No backsies. Hebrews 9:27

29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’
>>>> They have the Law. Let them understand what is good. Matt 5:17

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
>>>> Again with superstition Deut 18:10-12

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
>>>> The Wisdom of God is Perfect. If it doesn't convince you nothing will. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prohecies Not even the Risen Jesus will chnge their mind Luke 24:44

The chiasmus is in post #279.
There are so many meanings to explore, but no hell.

"
7. Then I wrote a memorial of their prayer and supplication, for their spirits, for everything which they had done, and for the subject of their entreaty, that they might obtain remission and rest.

8. Proceeding on, I continued over the waters of Danbadan, which is on the right to the west of Armon, reading the memorial of their prayer, until I fell asleep.

9. And behold a dream came to me, and visions appeared above me. I fell down and saw a vision of punishment, that I might relate it to the sons of heaven, and reprove them. "
https://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-13/

Would you agree that the author did not die?

 

[TheLearner]

Matthew 13:39
Good News Translation
39 and the enemy who sowed the weeds is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvest workers are angels.

Luke 16:22-23
Good News Translation
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to sit beside Abraham at the feast in heaven. The rich man died and was buried, 23 and in Hades,[a] where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

For Context:

Matthew 13
Jesus Explains the Parable of the Weeds
36 When Jesus had left the crowd and gone indoors, his disciples came to him and said, “Tell us what the parable about the weeds in the field means.”

37 Jesus answered, “The man who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 the field is the world; the good seed is the people who belong to the Kingdom; the weeds are the people who belong to the Evil One; 39 and the enemy who sowed the weeds is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvest workers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so the same thing will happen at the end of the age: 41 the Son of Man will send out his angels to gather up out of his Kingdom all those who cause people to sin and all others who do evil things, 42 and they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where they will cry and gnash their teeth. 43 [a]Then God's people will shine like the sun in their Father's Kingdom. Listen, then, if you have ears!

 

[TheLearner]

All things "eternal" come only from God and God alone. His punishment is everlasting as in final (static forever) not eternal(dynamic forever - resurrection and torture) .
Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those judged unworthy will pass and be forgotten. As if no memory of them ever having existed.
Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

We will all face the Judge, best keep your hands and forehead clean. Forget babylon (Zechariah 3) and don't weep for the pagan tammuz (Ezekial 8)

The Greek grammar only allows dynamic forever, not static. I already quoted Word Pictures by A.T. Robertson to that effect.

 

[TheLearner]

Is anything in the Bible "literal" to you? How about eternal life?

Start at post 720

Matthew 25:46
"But the same adjective aiwniov is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwniov (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word."
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...D/24055/eVerseID/24055/RTD/rwpnt/version/NASB

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Take heed to what? That's the point.

Anyone who thinks the warning pertains to what happens in the afterlife doesn't understand a thing about what the Bible consistently teaches in the OT and NT agbout the afterlife, because the depiction of the afterlife in the passage about the Rich Man and Lazarus is a depiction of the IMPOSSIBLE.

Therefore, Jesus was telling a parable rich with symbolism which interpretation has to do with something totally different to the afterlife.

You are not able to hear Phoneman.

"Spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned". That implies that in order to hear, ones spirit must have brought to life by God. I don't mean to criticise or denigrate you in any way, but I fear that is not your situation. I'll leave our discussion at that.

 

[Journeyman]

Every Bible believer KNOWS that Jesus
warned us about the eternal Hell fire, no matter how many of Satan's children call Jesus a liar.

Iv'e shown you the fire all are exposed to is at the judgement seat of Christ. Useless works are burnt up and so are the unrepentant.

You totally contradicted yourself!

You're interpreting the torment as eternal, instead of for the sins the unrepentant committed.

 

[Journeyman]

well there sure are a lot of people who think they know better than God, i'll give you that.

Yes that's true. A lot of people think God torments sinners for some reason other than repentance.

 

[Duckybill]

Iv'e shown you the fire all are exposed to is at the judgement seat of Christ. Useless works are burnt up and so are the unrepentant.


You're interpreting the torment as eternal, instead of for the sins the unrepentant committed.

I didn't interpret it. It's in every English Bible I know of, even the JW Bible. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Amen Jesus!

 

[Runningman]

I am curious why God wipes away our tears?

Revelation 21:1, 4
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In the new heaven and new earth, after God wipes the tears away there will be no more tears thereafter. Nor will there be death, sorrow, or pain. This doesn’t just apply to the state of the righteous, but all of creation will be renewed.

Peter says that in the New Heavens and New Earth, only 100% righteousness will exist.

2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There won’t be hordes of unrepentant sinners crying in pain, completely engulfed in flames, eternally blaspheming the name of God day and night without rest. Your eternal torment doctrine of men doesn’t stand up to the test of biblical scrutiny.

Those who are unrighteous will be put to death in the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15, Rev. 21:8)

I hope that answers your question. Please feel free to chat me any time. God bless.

At your service,
Brother Runningman

 

[Runningman]

I am glad you like the pictures. One does not seek to learn false doctrines like you believe brother.

Again, you use proof texts of physical death except for those related to judgement time.

http://westliberty.edu/health-and-safety/files/2012/08/Sulfur.pdf

View attachment 235718

The righteous and the unrighteousness both die physical deaths. I assure you that when the Bible says the righteous will live forever it isn’t a reference to never succumbing to the first death. Many of the verses I showed you speak to spiritual death and spiritual life. There’s certainly a difference dear Learner and I’m a bit concerned that you seem unable to see this. I want to let you know that you’re most likely partially blinded still. I don’t think you want to be blind, I recommend praying to God for help.

 

[Journeyman]

Most christians believe that God is just a Concept and not a Person. Their wicked imaginings, vices and vanities in their mind can fearlessly be heaped onto the Concept. It is said God is our One True Love. So why imply, infer, accept insults about your One True Love. Enjoy the love of God's Person or fear the Concept of God.
2Tim 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Well, I disagree that most Christians think God is a concept. Every Christian I know believes God is a person.

 

[Journeyman]

EXACTLY. And "tormented day and night forever and ever" UNTIL THEY DIE.

When they die, the saying shall come to pass, "...and there shall be NO MORE death, nor sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away."

I can't understand why people can read "the former things are passed away" and then say with a straight face, "the wicked will suffer torment continuously for all eternity". Won't the devil and demons and the wicked be among "the former things"? Good gravy, the entire planet will become a seething Lake of Fire which will burn up everything: the elements, the atmosphere, all creatures, rocks, mountains, etc. Seems like "the former things" are going to pass away" all right.

It's difficult to see what scripture really says when false teaching has been taught for a long time.