Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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Then explain! How can the Devil cease to exist and then be "tormented day and night forever and ever"???
I had a good reason for asking if you are JW. JW's also deny the "everlasting fire". I'm not Catholic. I'm a Bible believer. Why would you ask if I'm Catholic?
this is the Greek word that there was translated 'destroy'
Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]
it does not mean 'annihilate'
it means he will be rendered powerless.
it's right there in the context:
God will through death render powerless him who had the power of death
here's the Greek in Revelation 20:10
English is not like Greek. in Greek, and a lot of other languages, that one verb is conjugated differently depending on present tense, past tense future tense, whether it's yourself, one person, or many people.
so in Greek it's just one word, the verb 'torment' - but it's tense is 'future indicative perfect, 3rd person plural'
future: it's later, not now
indicative: it's what will be
perfect: it's definitely going to be, it's not iffy
3rd person: not the speaker, not the reader, but the subject being talked about
plural: more than one person
all that adds up to 'torment' in the Greek text is written in such a way that it absolutely means "they will be tormented" in English.
in Spanish for example the verb 'to torment' is 'tormentar'
to say 'they will be tormented' ((4 words in English))
is serán tormentados ((2 words in Spanish))
in Greek it's just one word.
so just because you don't see the word 'they' specifically doesn't mean the idea of 'they' is not present in the text.
C
ChristianTonyB
Guest
i don’t base my assessments on merely literal meanings, but rather what the Spirit is saying. It’s a warning Pm, and we are being spiritually and soulfully self destructive if we don’t take heed to it.
so you're left with two choices:
- you are correct; Christ is a liar teaching doctrines of demons & deceiving the people
- you are incorrect; your understanding of Genesis 2:7 is flawed
i mean, is it really so hard to guess which choice is the right one?
lol
then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. Exo.21:6
He means until the servant dies.
I had a good reason for asking if you're Catholic, as Catholics interpret the Bible the exact way you do, because they believe in eternal torment. Just seemed like a logical conclusion to me.
Well now that we've cleared the air, I'm also a Bible believer. Any other questions?
The fire that will torment the unsaved is the appearing of God. It's the judgement seat of Christ,I strongly believe hell it is relic of our pagan past. Why they do not reason through their sin (Isa 1:18) I do not know.
Have faith brother. Babylon will fall. God is Love and all things eternal come from Him. That includes death.. I mean the second death.
If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 2Cor.5:-11
For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev.14:10
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8
Being tormented "forever and ever" means the ungodly will be tormented by having all the sins they committed in this life (in other words, forever and ever) exposed. After this, they are annihilated.
Just to be clear, I'm aware of that and I did take it into consideration before deciding it doesn't mean what you say it does. Destroy is a good English translation for Hebrews 2:14 and I'll try to concisely explain why I think that.
The only way to make something completely inoperative or "bring to nought" is to destroy it. So the definition of the word checks out. It also matches the full counsel of the scriptures.
Here are some verses that support this:
1 Cor. 15:26 KJV
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Revelation 20:10 KJV
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In summary, these scriptures basically mean that whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire, though painful, results in death and not being "rendered powerless." Effectually, death is being destroyed. The devil, beast and false prophet, and everyone not in the book of life are put to death.
I can tell you're handy with a lexicon and concordance. What does it say about death?
Sure no problem. Simply, "forever" isn't literally forever in Revelation 20:10. As I said in an earlier post, forever isn't always forever where forever can be proven to not be forever. Probably the most well-known example is that Sodom and Gomorrah will burn forever when in the present day it isn't burning.
Now to answer your question, the devil can't be tormented forever if he's put to death. As I will show you below, the devil is cast into the lake of fire to receive the "second death." Death means the cessation of all bodily functions, thoughts, feelings, etc. The devil will be destroyed this way.
Revelation 20:10 KJV
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die? The Bible says that the devil is put to death. How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
There are no Gnostic teachings in those books. The 'Apocrypha' was in every Christian Bible until 1828 .
Why did Martin Luther include them?
Why did the Septuagint contain them?
Please answer the questions and these I already asked.
Why did Luther remove 7 books from the Bible?
https://pennbookcenter.com/why-did-martin-luther-remove-7-books-from-the-bible/
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/why...YjLC-fmfT25XZhR1AdGHr0U8pUEELhOEaAlF3EALw_wcB
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/defending-the-deuterocanonicals-996
https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible
One does teach that Abraham was saved by grace.
Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (First Maccabees 2:52).
My position is they are a historical source used with salt in my coffee.
it says that people without Christ are dead - even while their bodies are animate.
you and i were both dead, as God defines death, before we came to Him.
we existed. we existed being dead.
clearly 'death' as God defines it is not annihilation. God doesn't define 'life' as existence, either.
existence/non-existence and life/death are wholly separate qualities.
Then according to you, no one gets the destroyed and everyone lives forever. I couldn't disagree more. I could probably write a lengthy dissertation explaining why that's the wrong way to understand the Bible. But to each their own. I have all of the support I need to believe in death for the wicked and eternal life for the righteous.
Genesis 19:21-25
Easy-to-Read Version
21 The angel said to Lot, “Very well, I’ll let you do that. I will not destroy that town. 22 But run there quickly. I cannot destroy Sodom until you are safely in that town.” (That town is named Zoar,[a] because it is a small town.)
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
23 Lot was entering the town as the sun came up, 24 and the Lord began to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He caused fire and burning sulfur to fall from the sky. 25 He destroyed the whole valley—all the cities, the people living in the cities, and all the plants in the valley.
As we can see there is no eternal fire in the original text.
Jude 1:7
Literal Standard Version
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these [messengers], having given themselves to whoredom, and having gone after other flesh, have been set before [as] an example, undergoing the justice of continuous fire.
On eternal fire, you committed a well known among scholars word study fallacy.
Semantic Anachronism
Definition: Fallacy where a late definition of a word is read back into earlier literature.
http://exegeticaltools.com/2015/11/10/exegetical-fallacies-word-studies-part-1/
Clearly Jude used an exaggeration.
Saying God can does not mean he will. in fact, why not simply kill the soul and body of unbelievers before death.
God knows whom will accept Jesus even before time began. To borrow someone's idea, would that not be more loving?
Since born again Christians believes the Holy Spirit is teaching them, why the disagreements?
Your answer can apply to everyone everywhere.
That text has nothing to do with Luke 16 --- puzzled by your interpretation.