Every Christian knows in his or her heart that torment without end is contrary to justice.
Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Every Bible believer KNOWS that Jesus warned us about the eternal Hell fire, no matter how many of Satan's children call Jesus a liar.
Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die? The Bible says that the devil is put to death. How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
Why do you insist that there is no eternal Hell, like JW's do?
No it doesn't.
Let's try this again.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
So you don't believe in "eternal life"? It's the EXACT same Greek word.
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The unsaved are tormented "day and night forever" because the sins they committed "day and night forever" (or, their entire lives) is exposed by our Lord. They're not tormented eternally.
Weigh more of the scriptures to get a better idea of what the "eternal punishment" is referring to.
The exact same Greek word is used here:
John 3:36 (NASB)
36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
We can gather from a variety of verses that eternal life is not congruent with eternal punishment because the eternal punishment is they "will not see life." They will have eternal destruction - eternal destruction means ruin and death. That's consistent with the end of everyone not written in the book of life: they go to the second death. This means that those who have eternal punishment do not have eternal life.
This isn't a New Testament teaching either, the Old Testament has a lot of references to the death of the wicked soul. This is the typical life and death dichotomy of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
You can't deny eternal punishment and believe eternal life! They are the EXACT same Greek word!
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Right and the wicked don’t have eternal life. The eternal punishment is death with no possibility of resurrection. I hope this has been an enlightening discussion for you.
Romans 6:24 KJV
23For the wages of sin isdeath; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I am a purveyor of digested data. Of what you speak, I leave it to the more well read. There are 2 translations G3466 in the Strong's. Occult mysteries (knowledge only the initiates of some secret within a hierarchical belief system) and the New Testament mysteries (that is not fully understood by the faithful, that which is hidden from the faithless and that which is unknowable).
All my own interpretations match with the latter, not the former. There is no hell in the mysteries from my reading. Specify which mystery permits the interpretation of hell.
Never would call Jesus a liar. I am saying other things.
Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)
As per Rev 20
The satanic spirit was suppressed for a long time.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
The second scrubbing. He was released again to see who who would adhere to the accuser's philosophy, the false doctrines.
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Forever is literally aeon of aeons. In other words it is up to God as it always was. Consider Berean Literal Bible
10 And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
well there sure are a lot of people who think they know better than God, i'll give you that.
Never would call Jesus a liar. I am saying other things.
Matt 25:41 seems to refer to the third of heaven followed the the dragons tail. (Rev 12:4)
As per Rev 20
The satanic spirit was suppressed for a long time.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
The second scrubbing. He was released again to see who who would adhere to the accuser's philosophy, the false doctrines.
7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
Fire from God. There is you eternal fire.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Forever is literally aeon of aeons. In other words it is up to God as it always was. Consider Berean Literal Bible
10 And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
When is the end of the epoch.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
My translation is death and the grave will be annihilated. The presence of God will eternally be in the lives of the faithful.
The hellmonger's interpretation is the ghost in hell and hell will be thrown in the lake of hell. Kind of loopy snake eating the snakes tail. Another pagan concept.
you really think "sheep and goats" is about angels?
i think you should go read Matthew 25 again, right now, and see if the context is angels or humans.
when did angels see a stranger, or the weak or the hungry and thirsty, or those in prison, and refuse to help them?
when did angels turn a blind eye to 'the least of these' ?
IMHO, you're nuts.
- SO
- MUCH
- MILK
Most christians believe that God is just a Concept and not a Person. Their wicked imaginings, vices and vanities in their mind can fearlessly be heaped onto the Concept. It is said God is our One True Love. So why imply, infer, accept insults about your One True Love. Enjoy the love of God's Person or fear the Concept of God.
2Tim 1:6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Do you just only read the paragraph synopsis?
Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Where is the sheep and goats in devil and his angels? Maybe the goat is the devil like that satan icon thing and his angels are the black sheeps...er... I'll let you explain.
Of course I believe torment awaits the wicked dead...it's just not eternal.
What you call "men's opinions", I call fact. Solomon is clear the dead "know not anything" and they have no memory, emotions, ability to speak, lay plans, do work, come back and haunt the living, etc.
What is opinion is the lie of Satan that the dead really aren't dead...they're still "alive" somewhere disembodied and doing things, remembering things, saying things, laying plans, interacting with the living like "Samuel". 'But I have another parable for you:
There were two Christians, one believed that there was a place of torment that waited for the wicked dead and included it in his preaching and the other told people that the wicked would not know anything when they died.
They both died and went to heaven and then the one found out that he was wrong and there was a place of torment for the wicked dead.
Then he said, Oh Lord, I was wrong, please send that someone back to warn my friends that there really is a place of torment for the wicked dead.
And he was told, "They have the scriptures. If they do not believe what the scriptures say about the place of torment that awaits the wicked dead, then they will not believe even if one goes to them from the dead and warns them about the place of torment awaiting the wicked dead"
End of parable.
No, the dead are dead. They know nothing, feel nothing, say nothing, plan nothing, discern nothing, etc.
But, I can understand why the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd refuses to address the contradictions which arise from making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story: they simply have nothing to say. They know the dead DO NOT receive resurrection bodies until the resurrection at the end of time, which incidentally is still future, but to confess this is irrefutable proof that the passage is a parable is a major reduction to the "weight of evidence" they claim supports Immortal Soul doctrine. Again, these dead have bodies, converse, converse while completely engulfed in flame, lay plans to save their living brethren, etc., all of which is impossible.
You're free to ignore the evidence all you want. There are more and more who are coming to a knowledge of the truth about the lie of "eternal torment" - because they see people like you unable to answer the arguments that confront you...like how is it that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the "vengeance of eternal fire" yet they're not burning today and are under the Dead Sea.
They see such unanswerable arguments and they think, "wow, so God truly IS a God of love Who will put out of their misery those who refuse to give up sin and learn to love Him."
The best ammunition against Eternal Torment doctrine is an attack on the Annihilationist messenger instead of addressing the points of his message.
I'm saying we must accept the elements contained therein are symbolic and must be interpreted. Right away, it is evident the "Rich Man" symbolizes the "Jews" who are the "sons of Abraham" and have Abraham as their "father". Lazarus symbolizes the Gentile outsiders, to whom the Jews refer as "dogs".