The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

How many times is 'the church' referred to as GOD's People, His inheritance, His portion?

Hopefully some of our PRE TRIB APOSTASY preachers will answer.

how many times is " revealed" spoken in 2 thes 2?

You know, the ones you need reframed

 

[Absolutely]

What does the day of the Lord, the day of vengeance, the 2nd coming look like?


2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Yes
Thank you for those verses

I am also a pretribber

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since I`ve been away this thread has developed many pages. Glad people are having a good discussion.

Now I would like to answer that question for You FG, but not on this thread as it will take it off into another direction. Thus I will go and prepare another thread on `The Purpose of the Rapture.` It seems people talk about when and where it happens but not really understand God`s purpose. Thus it would be a good discussion I believe.

OK. Let me know when it's up. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If I don't, it's only because you keep refusing to share them. Even though I've been begging for them.


You just told me what I do: "you skip them and nevef look at them". You do what you claim others do.

"""Once again you screw up your post. All the above is from me, but it appears to have come from you. Formatting posts isn't that difficult."""
Ok
Sorry bout that
I am on my phone
It just does that and other weird stuff.
I try to edit but sometimes it gets away from me.

I see it later and think" boy is that going to get me his wrath"
Lol
I am not really concerned because no matter what i post, you are going to recklessly deny it.
Nit pick it into oblivion.[/QUOTE]
This shows you really aren't interested in proving anything other than you still don't have any verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[kleronomos]

How many times is 'Jacob/Israel' CLAIMED BY GOD AS HIS POSESSION? HIS INHERITANCE? HIS PEOPLE?

Deuteronomy 32:9 For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of HIS INHERITANCE.

1 Samuel 10:1 Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over HIS INHERITANCE?

2 Samuel 14:16 For the king will hear, to deliver his handmaid out of the hand of the man that would destroy me and my son together out of the inheritance of God.

Psalm 28:5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of His hands, He shall destroy them, and not build them up.
6 Blessed be the LORD, because He hath heard the voice of my supplications.
7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in Him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise Him.
8 The LORD is their strength, and He is the saving strength of His anointed.
9 Save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance: feed them also, and lift them up for ever.



Ezekiel 36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up Mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to My people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even My people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

 

[Absolutely]

How many times is 'Jacob/Israel' CLAIMED BY GOD AS HIS POSESSION? HIS INHERITANCE? HIS PEOPLE?

Deuteronomy 32:9 For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of HIS INHERITANCE.

1 Samuel 10:1 Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over HIS INHERITANCE?

2 Samuel 14:16 For the king will hear, to deliver his handmaid out of the hand of the man that would destroy me and my son together out of the inheritance of God.

Psalm 28:5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of His hands, He shall destroy them, and not build them up.
6 Blessed be the LORD, because He hath heard the voice of my supplications.
7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in Him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise Him.
8 The LORD is their strength, and He is the saving strength of His anointed.
9 Save Thy people, and bless Thine inheritance: feed them also, and lift them up for ever.



Ezekiel 36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up Mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to My people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even My people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

I doubt if anyone knows what you are attempting to make those verses say

 

[Absolutely]

when they cant answer honestly they leave a cowardly red ex and run away.

Drive by .
Shoot blanks
Hide

See it here all the time.

They cant prove their assumptions

But i do understand their frustration.
That postrib rapture deal is a tuff road. Not bible at all

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why? Explain

I addressed that question to you nearly two weeks ago, in my Post #625 (page 32) of this thread, where I'd said (in part):

[quoting]

Let me try to put it as simply as I can, to help you see what I'm saying (and what the text is conveying):

--Verse 1's Subject (in its two clauses) is completely and totally VERTICAL (the Lord DESCENDING "TO the meeting... IN THE AIR" and US being SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")
--Verse 2's Subject (Paul covering what the "false conveyors" are purporting) is completely and totally HORIZONTAL (i.e. entirely EARTHLY-located): "[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]";

[and]

Paul states ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the "false convyors' msg" being ANYTHING AT ALL about "RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED [IN THE AIR]" (THAT Subject / Paul's OWN v.1 Subject HE IS BRINGING to bear on the issue of the "false claimants' false msg")--their false claim rather had / has to do with "[that] the day of the Lord is present / is already here" (i.e. playing out upon the EARTH, where it is ONLY EVER SLATED to take place: ON THE EARTH)

... plus MORE in that Post #625 (and in Post #626) - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4751561






____________

"the day of the Lord" (EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD) INCLUDES:
"a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth
AND [subsequent to Christ's RETURN to the earth]
ALSO [INCLUDES] a period of time [also not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs unfolding upon the earth".





The "false claim" (v.2 which Paul is informing about) was that the PERIOD OF TIME OF JUDGMENTS [what we today commonly call "the 7-yr Tribulation period"] was ALREADY ARRIVED / ALREADY HERE / PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE], unfolding upon the earth IN THEIR PRESENT-DAY EXPERIENCE.
(Which was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to [INCORRECTLY] believe WAS TRUE, because of their own 2Th1:4 VERY NEGATIVE "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" ONGOINGLY in their own experience)

It wasn't.

("The DOTL" wasn't "PRESENT".)

And in the text which follows, Paul explains WHY that [that falsehood] CANNOT BE SO! and WILL NOT BE SO: "if not shall have come ______" (ONE THING *FIRST*) "AND [distinctly and subsequently / consequently] the man of sin BE REVEALED..."


[then he reiterates the SEQUENCE and REPEATS IT 3x in this passage... which agrees with all other passages on this Subject, showing the SAME SEQUENCE]


(note: he/the man of sin is "REVEALED" at the START of the "7 year period"...
...at the 2Th2:9a point in time ["whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia"]...
...NOT at the 2Th2:4b point in time ["who SITTETH"]...
...and certainly NOT at the 2Th2:8b point in time ["whom the Lord SHALL CONSUME... DESTROY..." (at "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia"--Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19)]
--Paul's Chapter 2 is covering the ENTIRE "7 YEAR PERIOD"[+]... not merely the 3.5 years, as some suppose!)







Hope that helps you see what I had been saying...

...especially in relation to Verse 2's "false claim" (as DISTINCT FROM Paul's VERSE 1 Subject, which HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR on the issue of VERSE 2's FALSE CLAIM "that the DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [already unfolding upon the earth] "NOT!")


PAUL's VERSE 1 SUBJECT and the FALSE CLAIMANTS' VERSE 2 SUBJECT were not speaking of the SAME THING (but the passage GOES ON TO EXPLAIN how the ONE relates TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE to the OTHER)

 

[cv5]

How many times is 'the church' referred to as GOD's People, His inheritance, His portion?

Hopefully some of our PRE TRIB APOSTASY preachers will answer.

I see you have finally exposed yourself as a replacement theologian. One of the greatest mistakes anyone could ever make. No wonder your eschatology is a disaster.

 

[cv5]

Rebellion than confirmed by Man of sin. man of sin is other word of rebelion

No not at all. "The Departure" and the Man of Sin are in no way synonymous.
The Departure is an event.
The man of sin is a person.

Those who participate in The Departure aka the rapture......will never encounter the man of sin.

The Church has no exposure or dealings with the man of sin whatsoever. The Church has been removed prior to the revealing of this man of sin.

 

[kleronomos]

THE REASON FOR THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY.


To escape persecution/tribulation because of the word 'great'
To make sure to not suffer one wit more than other generations have

BUT what is written about PERSECUTION AND AFFLICTION ECT.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If we are 'blessed' by being persecuted for righteousness, and THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN OURS, then why would God remove anyone from it? WHY would God remove everyone from the FINAL GENERATION only?

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.

Again, if we are blessed when we are persecuted, isn't 'THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY' basically telling us GOD will not be allowing us the opportunity for those blessings we would otherwise have been able to take with us for all of eternity?

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Again, THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY makes these rewards impossible to gather as a good work. Why would God do that? Why tell us of the prophets before us if it doesn't apply to everyone? Does that make any sense?

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY takes ALL the salt FROM THE EARTH. Would God take two billions souls wherein the Holy Spirit dwells OFF THE EARTH while at the same time SENDING TWO to the earth? Not only does the question of does that make sense arise but IS THAT WISE?



ARE WE TOLD THE SAME THING IN OTHER PLACES?
Psalm 66:8 O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
9 Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.
10 For Thou, O God, HAST PROVED US, THOU HAST TRIED US AS SILVER IS TRIED.
11 Thou broughtest us into the net; Thou laidst affliction upon our loins.
12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads we went through fire and through water

but Thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.

13 I will go into Thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows,
14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.
15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.


1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations

7 THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH BEING MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD THAT PERISHETH, THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


HOW ARE WE KEPT? BY THE POWER OF GOD.
Not though a pre trib rapture.


HOW ARE WE TO FEEL ABOUT HEAVY MANIFOLD TEMPTATIONS? WE ARE TO GREATLY REJOICE.
Not to look for a 'pre trib rapture

ARE WE TO BE TRIED? WILL IT BE HEAVY? WILL IT ONLY BE FOR A SEASON?

THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THAT IS WHAT WILL BE DONE


WHO IS GODS INHERITANCE? ISRAEL/JACOB How do the gentiles receive salvation? By being grafted in and becoming heirs of the promises. Abrahams seed.

 

[cv5]

FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T A CLUE as to who GOD IS and what HIS PLAN is and how HE WORKS

Isaiah 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

Isaiah 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

Isaiah 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

WHO IS GODS INHERITANCE? NOT 'THE CHURCH'

The Church is the Bride of Christ. They are unique and have unique heavenly blessings.

The house of Jacob aka Israel is likewise unique. They have unique earthly blessings.

The Church is actually seen in Heaven in Rev chs 4, 5, 7, 11, 14 and 19.

Where is the house of Jacob aka Israel throughout all of these same chapters? Residing upon the earth as earth dwellers!

 

[cv5]

THE REASON FOR THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY.


To escape persecution/tribulation because of the word 'great'
To make sure to not suffer one wit more than other generations have

BUT what is written about PERSECUTION AND AFFLICTION ECT.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If we are 'blessed' by being persecuted for righteousness, and THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN OURS, then why would God remove anyone from it? WHY would God remove everyone from the FINAL GENERATION only?

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake.

Again, if we are blessed when we are persecuted, isn't 'THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY' basically telling us GOD will not be allowing us the opportunity for those blessings we would otherwise have been able to take with us for all of eternity?

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Again, THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY makes these rewards impossible to gather as a good work. Why would God do that? Why tell us of the prophets before us if it doesn't apply to everyone? Does that make any sense?

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

THE PRE TRIB APOSTASY THEORY takes ALL the salt FROM THE EARTH. Would God take two billions souls wherein the Holy Spirit dwells OFF THE EARTH while at the same time SENDING TWO to the earth? Not only does the question of does that make sense arise but IS THAT WISE?



ARE WE TOLD THE SAME THING IN OTHER PLACES?
Psalm 66:8 O bless our God, ye people, and make the voice of his praise to be heard:
9 Which holdeth our soul in life, and suffereth not our feet to be moved.
10 For Thou, O God, HAST PROVED US, THOU HAST TRIED US AS SILVER IS TRIED.
11 Thou broughtest us into the net; Thou laidst affliction upon our loins.
12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads we went through fire and through water

but Thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.

13 I will go into Thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows,
14 Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble.
15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.


1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations

7 THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH BEING MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD THAT PERISHETH, THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


HOW ARE WE KEPT? BY THE POWER OF GOD.
Not though a pre trib rapture.


HOW ARE WE TO FEEL ABOUT HEAVY MANIFOLD TEMPTATIONS? WE ARE TO GREATLY REJOICE.
Not to look for a 'pre trib rapture

ARE WE TO BE TRIED? WILL IT BE HEAVY? WILL IT ONLY BE FOR A SEASON?

THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THAT IS WHAT WILL BE DONE


WHO IS GODS INHERITANCE? ISRAEL/JACOB How do the gentiles receive salvation? By being grafted in and becoming heirs of the promises. Abrahams seed.

Please inform the board about what Church you attend. I mean what denomination per se. I am curious.....

 

[cv5]

I doubt if anyone knows what you are attempting to make those verses say

He is an addled confused advocate of "replacement theology". No wonder everything he says doesn't make sense.

 

[Jackson123]

Reveal means rapture can happen a day later.

Pre mean before so not pre trib, not a day or an hour before it is after trib
You make your own bible because Jesuit lie to you
Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Jackson123]

.....and deception means what?
Would changing the meaning of "revealed" be such deception we see in postrib rapture doctrine.

Mean lie Paul warned for lie doctrine of pretrib

 

[Jackson123]

I am going to go through and dispel arguments I have heard about why 'pre trib' has to be truth by what God has said and done in the past to see if what is being said is the truth or not.

1. "GOD would never let 'the body of Christ' suffer tribulation".

Let's see if He has done so before so we can know whether that argument is a truth or not?

Does God give His people over to others for chastisement? Is the 'church' a part of Gods people? YES. Did the descriptions of the 'churches' warrant some chastisement/persecution/testing? Most definitely YES.

Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of Thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously?

2 Thou hast planted them, yea, they have taken root: they grow, yea, they bring forth fruit: Thou art near in their mouth, and far from their reins.

3 But thou, O LORD, knowest me: Thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.

4 How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds because they said He shall not see our last end.

5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?

6 For even thy brethren, and the house of thy father, even they have dealt treacherously with thee; yea, they have called a multitude after thee: believe them not, though they speak fair words unto thee.

7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage I have given the dearly beloved of My soul into the hand of her enemies.

8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it.

9 Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour.

10 Many pastors have destroyed My vineyard, they have trodden My portion under foot, they have made My pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

11 They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto Me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.

12 The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land no flesh shall have peace.

13 They have sown wheat, but shall reap thorns they have put themselves to pain, but shall not profit and they shall be ashamed of your revenues because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

14 Thus saith the LORD against all mine evil neighbours, that touch the inheritance which I have caused MY PEOPLE ISRAEL to inherit Behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them.

15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return and have compassion on them and will bring them again, every man to his heritage and every man to his land.

16 And it shall come to pass if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, the Lord liveth, as they taught my people to swear by Baal then shall THEY BE BUILT IN THE MIDST OF MY PEOPLE.

Jeremiah 12:17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation saith the LORD.


So yes, God does allow His people, His prophets and His only Begotten to fall into the hands of the enemy. That is a truth about why a PRE TRIB RAPTURE GOES AGAINST HOW GOD WORKS AND WHAT THE WORDS OF GOD TELL US.

And God let Jews stoned Stephen to dead, it is great tribulation for stephen

 

[Jackson123]

I addressed that question to you nearly two weeks ago, in my Post #625 (page 32) of this thread, where I'd said (in part):

[quoting]



[and]






... plus MORE in that Post #625 (and in Post #626) - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4751561






____________

"the day of the Lord" (EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD) INCLUDES:
"a period of time [not merely 24-hrs in duration] of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth
AND [subsequent to Christ's RETURN to the earth]
ALSO [INCLUDES] a period of time [also not merely 24-hrs in duration] of BLESSINGs unfolding upon the earth".





The "false claim" (v.2 which Paul is informing about) was that the PERIOD OF TIME OF JUDGMENTS [what we today commonly call "the 7-yr Tribulation period"] was ALREADY ARRIVED / ALREADY HERE / PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE], unfolding upon the earth IN THEIR PRESENT-DAY EXPERIENCE.
(Which was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to [INCORRECTLY] believe WAS TRUE, because of their own 2Th1:4 VERY NEGATIVE "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" ONGOINGLY in their own experience)

It wasn't.

("The DOTL" wasn't "PRESENT".)

And in the text which follows, Paul explains WHY that [that falsehood] CANNOT BE SO! and WILL NOT BE SO: "if not shall have come ______" (ONE THING *FIRST*) "AND [distinctly and subsequently / consequently] the man of sin BE REVEALED..."


[then he reiterates the SEQUENCE and REPEATS IT 3x in this passage... which agrees with all other passages on this Subject, showing the SAME SEQUENCE]


(note: he/the man of sin is "REVEALED" at the START of the "7 year period"...
...at the 2Th2:9a point in time ["whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia"]...
...NOT at the 2Th2:4b point in time ["who SITTETH"]...
...and certainly NOT at the 2Th2:8b point in time ["whom the Lord SHALL CONSUME... DESTROY..." (at "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia"--Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19)]
--Paul's Chapter 2 is covering the ENTIRE "7 YEAR PERIOD"[+]... not merely the 3.5 years, as some suppose!)







Hope that helps you see what I had been saying...

...especially in relation to Verse 2's "false claim" (as DISTINCT FROM Paul's VERSE 1 Subject, which HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR on the issue of VERSE 2's FALSE CLAIM "that the DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [already unfolding upon the earth] "NOT!")


PAUL's VERSE 1 SUBJECT and the FALSE CLAIMANTS' VERSE 2 SUBJECT were not speaking of the SAME THING (but the passage GOES ON TO EXPLAIN how the ONE relates TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE to the OTHER)

I am not agree
The topics Paul to explain is in verse 1 about the second coming and rapture
Why you think Paul talk another subject before explain the topic, it is odd

Paul concern about a rumor that second coming and rapture had been happen so Paul try to convince Thessalonians not to believe the lie rumor, and explain those day will not happen before ac reveal

 

[cv5]

And God let Jews stoned Stephen to dead, it is great tribulation for stephen

If that's what you believe.......then you are hopelessly confused about the fundamental facts about end time eschatology.

Do yourself a favor and read again Daniel chapters 2, 7, 9, 11 and 12. And then you will come to the conclusion that the death of Stephen had nothing whatsoever to do with the great tribulation.

BTW......The sum and total of end time eschatology is NOT located in Matthew 24 alone. The only way you're going to understand Matthew 24 is in relation to the entire council of God. All of the Old Testament prophecies, all of Jesus parables, all of the New Testament writings.......everything.

 

[Jackson123]

If that's what you believe.......then you are hopelessly confused about the fundamental facts about end time eschatology.

Do yourself a favor and read again Daniel chapters 2, 7, 9, 11 and 12. And then you will come to the conclusion that the death of Stephen had nothing whatsoever to do with the great tribulation.

BTW......The sum and total of end time eschatology is NOT located in Matthew 24 alone. The only way you're going to understand Matthew 24 is in relation to the entire council of God. All of the Old Testament prophecies, all of Jesus parables, all of the New Testament writings.......everything.

I say for Stephen, not gt end time, what is greatest tribulation than stoned to dead? Car accident and hospitalized for a week or dead? And God let it happen to Stephen, than the concept that god will not permit ac to persecute Christian is wrong.