Enoch and other “lost books” of the Bible

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O

Oblio

Guest
#41
#41
If one doesn't want to read Enoch, then don't. I just wish people would be honest about it.
No one can prove to me that if it's not in the protestant canon, then it's not inspired. There are different canons.
Just like no one can prove to me that watcher angels can't have sex, or that spiritual gifts no longer exist.
You can give me your opinion on scripture, and I will respect that, as that is how I want to be treated.
I could go on about different translations, manuscripts, languages, not to mention 40,000 denominations. But that would be a drag.
JStates said:
I'm on the fence with Enoch right now. Since there are several versions, my current investigations relate to which is reliable if any.
I actually was going to buy a version just today but something stopped me. Need to do more research first.
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You need to be cautious...good for you!
 
A

Amanuensis

Well-known member
#42
Jun 12, 2021
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#42
JStates said:
Which Enoch? -- is the real question here. One of the earliest translators used a single Ethiopic manuscript (MS). If you understand the critical text methodology as related to the Scriptures, you'll understand what I mean when I say that modern scholars later applied textual criticism and produced several newer translations of "Enoch."

Problem is that we really don't know that ANY version of the Book of Enoch is actually legitimate. (Original MSS I mean.)

Same as with Jasher. There are something like three Books of Jasher... and I'm not sure any of them is the real one that the Bible references.
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I think the Jasher people like to reference (the lost book conspiracy theory folks) was written in the 1700s and everyone knows who the author is. It is a joke. I can't take anyone serious who thinks it is credible. It is a waste of time to explain it to them. They don't care. They are enjoying their fantasy.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#44
#44
I try to be led by the Holy Spirit regarding what I read. He led me to read Enoch. buyer beware!
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#45
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
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#45
Oblio said:
I try to be led by the Holy Spirit regarding what I read. He led me to read Enoch. buyer beware!
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I found out about Enoch about 10 years ago, and a local library had it, so got to read it without buying it. I would say, it's better to be really familiar with the Bible, before starting to trail blaze into other writings.

Already into Chapter 8 of the book of Barnabus and think it's a good supplement to the Bible, but listening with caution. If someone has a solid foundation in the faith, don't see how exploring possible writings by Biblical people to be in error. Just my opinion.
 
A

Amanuensis

Well-known member
#46
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#46
Oblio said:
If one doesn't want to read Enoch, then don't. I just wish people would be honest about it.
No one can prove to me that if it's not in the protestant canon, then it's not inspired. There are different canons.
Just like no one can prove to me that watcher angels can't have sex, or that spiritual gifts no longer exist.
You can give me your opinion on scripture, and I will respect that, as that is how I want to be treated.
I could go on about different translations, manuscripts, languages, not to mention 40,000 denominations. But that would be a drag.

You need to be cautious...good for you!
Click to expand...
There are so many good scholarly papers on the origins of this collection of manuscripts called the book of Enoch. And they all prove conclusively when it was written and the religous Jewish/Greek syncretic cult that was behind it. They present all the other documents from that time period where these writings were discussed and that gives us conclusive evidence about how they were received at the time.
All of this has been available to the serious bible student for centuries. The internet should make it easy to find these books and I imagine plenty are in the public domain.
Why suddenly ignore all that has been proven about them as if one is ignorant that all this ground has already been covered many times over through history?

Dig deeper than your entertainment, or conspiracy theory, sites and find the books that have already been written on this. It will free your mind from the ignorance that is surrounding these pseudonymous writings.

It may take you a few weeks just to get through some of the scholarly presentations. Once you have all the facts you will know what all those who have asked these questions before have learned and then you will understand why they are so far from what the bible teaches it is not even a serious question any longer. They contradict the bible on so many levels even the way they present God. But you have to know Jewish scriptures well enough and then you can see the obvious Greek gnostic attempt to change what the Bible says about God to what these Jewish Greek Gnostic syncretic cult thought and wanted to present using a few things that the bible did say about Enoch and adding their fabled story with a design to teach a cosmic good vs evil story of their own invention. And of course attempting to add the Greek mythology into the bible by misinterpreting some passages that served their purpose.

And if after reading these scholarly presentations that reveal the origins and why the writings contradict the bible, it is very unlikely that one would continue to suggest that they should be read for their literary value. I think that sort of thing is only said by those who have not read these scholarly presentations on the origins and internal evidence of these writings.

There is no shortcut. You can't watch a short video or listen to a person who is pro book of Enoch and think you have heard the facts.

Finding the scholarly papers are not difficult. If you WANT to find them. I have learned that there are many who do not WANT to read anything that would negate a theory they WANT to be true. That is a heart problem. I believe that those who are truly born again love truth and hate lies and will gladly humble themselves before the Lord and ask the Lord to lead them to TRUTH only and help them clearly see false information, lies and false accusations.

Lovers of holiness hate lies and love truth and they will be very sensitive to any intellectual dishonesty in their hearts. They will know how to concede to facts and reject a theory when they discover it is not true. Those that are not willing to give up a false notion once they have been shown it is false have a heart issue exposed.

These people don't care if the notion they have is a lie. Truth is not the objective. Something else is. Maybe it is the entertainment value they get from books like Enoch. Maybe it is the desire to write a sci fi novel about such a world and they don't want their fantasy ruined by facts right now so they refuse to read the scholarly works that give them the facts about the book of Enoch. God knows the heart.

But lovers of truth want facts and will read these books and learn instead of pretending that they are doing research by watching pro book of Enoch youtube videos and ignoring the scholarly papers and textual critics and work that has been done throughout the centuries.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#47
#47
kinda said:
I found out about Enoch about 10 years ago, and a local library had it, so got to read it without buying it. I would say, it's better to be really familiar with the Bible, before starting to trail blaze into other writings.

Already into Chapter 8 of the book of Barnabus and think it's a good supplement to the Bible, but listening with caution. If someone has a solid foundation in the faith, don't see how exploring possible writings by Biblical people to be in error. Just my opinion.
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Yeah, I agree 100%. You need a solid grounding in the bible before you go outside so you don't end up believing something you shouldn't. But since anyone can easily access these writings, I believe it's good to arm people with the facts. One does not need to read Enoch for their spiritual growth. And the Lord prepared me for it, too, as I was previously ardently opposed to anything outside of the bible.
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#48
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
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#48
Oblio said:
Yeah, I agree 100%. You need a solid grounding in the bible before you go outside so you don't end up believing something you shouldn't. But since anyone can easily access these writings, I believe it's good to arm people with the facts. One does not need to read Enoch for their spiritual growth. And the Lord prepared me for it, too, as I was previously ardently opposed to anything outside of the bible.
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Found Chapter 15 of Barnabus to be worth noting.

You ever hear of the teaching that Jesus will return after six thousand years? In the Jewish Calendar it is year 5782, so with this in mind, 218 are left, before the 1,000 year Sabbath. Do we know that the Jewish Calendar is absolutely correct? I don't know, but it's probably the best calendar we have.

Chapter 15. The false and the true Sabbath

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, And sanctify the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart. Exodus 20:8; Deuteronomy 5:12 And He says in another place, If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them. Jeremiah 17:24-25 The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it. Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, He finished in six days. This implies that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifies, saying, Behold, today will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. And He rested on the seventh day. This means: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, You shall sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart. If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God has sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. Isaiah 1:13 You perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#49
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
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#49
Chapter 19 pretty much tells how to live like a Christian. I really like how Barnabus condemns abortion, since always thought it was murder. I think the whole abortion issue is settled thanks to Barnabus.


Chapter 19. The way of light

The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. You shall love Him that created you: you shall glorify Him that redeemed you from death. You shall be simple in heart, and rich in spirit. You shall not join yourself to those who walk in the way of death. You shall hate doing what is unpleasing to God: you shall hate all hypocrisy. You shall not forsake the commandments of the Lord. You shall not exalt yourself, but shall be of a lowly mind. You shall not take glory to yourself. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbour. You shall not allow over-boldness to enter into your soul. You shall not commit fornication: you shall not commit adultery: you shall not be a corrupter of youth. You shall not let the word of God issue from your lips with any kind of impurity. You shall not accept persons when you reprove any one for transgression. You shall be meek: you shall be peaceable. You shall tremble at the words which you hear. You shall not be mindful of evil against your brother. You shall not be of doubtful mind James 1:8 as to whether a thing shall be or not. You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain. You shall love your neighbour more than your own soul. You shall not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shall you destroy it after it is born. You shall not withdraw your hand from your son, or from your daughter, but from their infancy you shall teach them the fear of the Lord. You shall not covet what is your neighbour's, nor shall you be avaricious. You shall not be joined in soul with the haughty, but you shall be reckoned with the righteous and lowly. Receive as good things the trials which come upon you. You shall not be of double mind or of double tongue, for a double tongue is a snare of death. You shall be subject to the Lord, and to [other] masters as the image of God, with modesty and fear. You shall not issue orders with bitterness to your maidservant or your man-servant, who trust in the same [God ], lest you should not reverence that God who is above both; for He came to call men not according to their outward appearance, Ephesians 6:9 but according as the Spirit had prepared them. Romans 8:29-30 You shall communicate in all things with your neighbour; you shall not call things your own; for if you are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible! You shall not be hasty with your tongue, for the mouth is a snare of death. As far as possible, you shall be pure in your soul. Do not be ready to stretch forth your hands to take, while you contract them to give. You shall love, as the apple of your eye, every one that speaks to you the word of the Lord. You shall remember the day of judgment, night and day. You shall seek out every day the faces of the saints, either by word examining them, and going to exhort them, and meditating how to save a soul by the word, or by your hands you shall labour for the redemption of your sins. You shall not hesitate to give, nor murmur when you give. Give to every one that asks you, and you shall know who is the good Recompenser of the reward. You shall preserve what you have received [in charge], neither adding to it nor taking from it. To the last you shall hate the wicked [one]. You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.


https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#50
#50
kinda said:
Found Chapter 15 of Barnabus to be worth noting.

You ever hear of the teaching that Jesus will return after six thousand years? In the Jewish Calendar it is year 5782, so with this in mind, 218 are left, before the 1,000 year Sabbath. Do we know that the Jewish Calendar is absolutely correct? I don't know, but it's probably the best calendar we have.

Chapter 15. The false and the true Sabbath

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, And sanctify the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart. Exodus 20:8; Deuteronomy 5:12 And He says in another place, If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them. Jeremiah 17:24-25 The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it. Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, He finished in six days. This implies that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifies, saying, Behold, today will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. And He rested on the seventh day. This means: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, You shall sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart. If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God has sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. Isaiah 1:13 You perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm
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Amen! I also believe He will return and reign for the seventh "day", the thousand year millennial reign.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#51
#51
kinda said:
Chapter 19 pretty much tells how to live like a Christian. I really like how Barnabus condemns abortion, since always thought it was murder. I think the whole abortion issue is settled thanks to Barnabus.


Chapter 19. The way of light

The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. You shall love Him that created you: you shall glorify Him that redeemed you from death. You shall be simple in heart, and rich in spirit. You shall not join yourself to those who walk in the way of death. You shall hate doing what is unpleasing to God: you shall hate all hypocrisy. You shall not forsake the commandments of the Lord. You shall not exalt yourself, but shall be of a lowly mind. You shall not take glory to yourself. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbour. You shall not allow over-boldness to enter into your soul. You shall not commit fornication: you shall not commit adultery: you shall not be a corrupter of youth. You shall not let the word of God issue from your lips with any kind of impurity. You shall not accept persons when you reprove any one for transgression. You shall be meek: you shall be peaceable. You shall tremble at the words which you hear. You shall not be mindful of evil against your brother. You shall not be of doubtful mind James 1:8 as to whether a thing shall be or not. You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain. You shall love your neighbour more than your own soul. You shall not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shall you destroy it after it is born. You shall not withdraw your hand from your son, or from your daughter, but from their infancy you shall teach them the fear of the Lord. You shall not covet what is your neighbour's, nor shall you be avaricious. You shall not be joined in soul with the haughty, but you shall be reckoned with the righteous and lowly. Receive as good things the trials which come upon you. You shall not be of double mind or of double tongue, for a double tongue is a snare of death. You shall be subject to the Lord, and to [other] masters as the image of God, with modesty and fear. You shall not issue orders with bitterness to your maidservant or your man-servant, who trust in the same [God ], lest you should not reverence that God who is above both; for He came to call men not according to their outward appearance, Ephesians 6:9 but according as the Spirit had prepared them. Romans 8:29-30 You shall communicate in all things with your neighbour; you shall not call things your own; for if you are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible! You shall not be hasty with your tongue, for the mouth is a snare of death. As far as possible, you shall be pure in your soul. Do not be ready to stretch forth your hands to take, while you contract them to give. You shall love, as the apple of your eye, every one that speaks to you the word of the Lord. You shall remember the day of judgment, night and day. You shall seek out every day the faces of the saints, either by word examining them, and going to exhort them, and meditating how to save a soul by the word, or by your hands you shall labour for the redemption of your sins. You shall not hesitate to give, nor murmur when you give. Give to every one that asks you, and you shall know who is the good Recompenser of the reward. You shall preserve what you have received [in charge], neither adding to it nor taking from it. To the last you shall hate the wicked [one]. You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.


https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm
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I totally agree. Sigh. I believe sanctification is a process. Malachi 3:3, Luke 9:23, 1 Peter 1:9. The Lord taught me about the daily cross 22 years ago. Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with God.
I'm once again in a valley. In all things, give thanks. I like the song, "Promises," by Maverick City. - Resting in the knowledge of our unconditional acceptance by the Father through faith in the atonement bought us by His Son, we walk with Him. The Faithful One.
He loves us so much!
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#52
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
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#52
Oblio said:
I totally agree. Sigh. I believe sanctification is a process. Malachi 3:3, Luke 9:23, 1 Peter 1:9. The Lord taught me about the daily cross 22 years ago. Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with God.
I'm once again in a valley. In all things, give thanks. I like the song, "Promises," by Maverick City. - Resting in the knowledge of our unconditional acceptance by the Father through faith in the atonement bought us by His Son, we walk with Him. The Faithful One.
He loves us so much!
Click to expand...

Never heard of the song, but it gave me goose bumps.





Going through Clement now. Barnabus was awesome. The writing (Barnabus) seems inspired to me. He constantly quoted scripture and brought deeper understanding. Pretty deep overall.


 
O

Oblio

Guest
#53
#53
It's been 8 years since I was introduced to Enoch. I've read a few extra-canonical books since then, but it's the bible that I regularly read. If it helps you in your walk with the Lord, I think that's a good thing. I like things that help me get a better understanding of the bible. Most of all, I focus on the Lord.
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#54
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
113
#54
Oblio said:
It's been 8 years since I was introduced to Enoch. I've read a few extra-canonical books since then, but it's the bible that I regularly read. If it helps you in your walk with the Lord, I think that's a good thing. I like things that help me get a better understanding of the bible. Most of all, I focus on the Lord.
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Agree.

I find the writings by 1st/2nd Century believers incredible. Not sure why churches don't mention them, they seem to be in line with scripture to me.

Like this bit in Clement...

Parts of Chapter 2 of 1st Clement.


Every kind of faction and schism was abominable in your sight. You mourned over the transgressions of your neighhours: their deficiencies you deemed your own. You never grudged any act of kindness, being "ready to every good work." Adorned by a thoroughly virtuous and religious life, you did all things in the fear of God. The commandments and ordinances of the Lord were written upon the tablets of your hearts.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#55
#55
I put my faith in Jesus, my anchor to the ground
My hope and firm foundation, He'll never let me down! - Maverick City

Hallelujah!!!
 
JStates

JStates

Banned
#56
Jan 5, 2022
1,224
620
113
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"A higher plane," hehe
www.youtube.com
#56
Oblio said:
It's been 8 years since I was introduced to Enoch. I've read a few extra-canonical books since then, but it's the bible that I regularly read. If it helps you in your walk with the Lord, I think that's a good thing. I like things that help me get a better understanding of the bible. Most of all, I focus on the Lord.
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Yes. There are plenty of helpful books out there which are not inspired in the sense that Scripture is inspired, but they can still be immensely helpful to the believer. And I agree with you that the plethora of false gospels are noticeably inferior in many ways to Scripture.

It's a bit easier to evaluate books in the modern era where you know who wrote a book and you can say, "Okay, I know so-and-so is a good, rooted, godly Christian preacher" etc.
 
Blade

Blade

Well-known member
#57
Nov 19, 2019
1,772
624
113
#57
From what I read and understand its not scripture and then no one knows if he wrote some most or all we just don't know that fact gets left out. Now my self I do believe there is some truth in there but.. anyway
 
O

Oblio

Guest
#58
#58
Looking neither to the left, nor to the right
But gazing straight ahead, I see a glorious sight
Descending from the sky, adorned like a bride...is my home!
I'm on the road, I'm going home
I'm on the road, I'm not alone,
I'm on the road...to my home! Lol
 
kinda

kinda

Senior Member
#60
Jun 26, 2013
3,902
1,495
113
#60
kinda said:
Never heard of the song, but it gave me goose bumps.



Going through Clement now. Barnabus was awesome. The writing (Barnabus) seems inspired to me. He constantly quoted scripture and brought deeper understanding. Pretty deep overall.
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Well I could be wrong, looks like most have confirmed that Barnabus is not scripture. As far as their criticism regarding the sabbath, in no way did it say, the sabbath was changed to Sunday. I believe it said, we keep the 8th day as the day of gladness. Why can't you be glad on the 8th day? Don't see anything wrong with that. Maybe I'm stretching it out to much, but if you keep the Bible in the back of your mind, Barnabus has some interesting points.

There are more doctrinal errors according to the site, but maybe it's just a wrong perspective?!?! Maybe it's just a matter of trying to make it fit, rather than trying to find errors? I don't know for sure. I really liked the Epitstle of Barnabas, so maybe it takes some time to understand it for what it is?!?!


Text below is a direct quote from website.


Doctrinal Errors


However, the doctrinal errors contained in the Epistle of Barnabas are quite striking, showing that this book could not possibly be “inspired” by God. We are setting forth below some of its major errors:


Error #1:


The Epistle of Barnabas alleges that the Seventh-Day Sabbath has been replaced by the “eight day” Sunday, on which “Jesus rose from the dead.”


Quoting from the 1885 translation of the “Apostolic Fathers, Charles H. Hoole,” we read in chapter 15, verses 8 and 9:


“(15:8) And, further, he saith unto them, Your new moons and your sabbaths I cannot endure. See, now, what he meaneth. The sabbaths, that now are, are not acceptable unto me, but that which I have made is, even that in which, after that I have brought all things to an end, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, which thing is the beginning of another world. (15:9) Wherefore we keep the eighth day as a day of gladness, on which also Jesus rose from the dead, and after he had appeared ascended unto heaven.”


Nowhere does the Bible teach that the Sabbath was replaced by Sunday; nor, that Sunday is the “eighth day”; nor, that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. For more information, please read our free booklets, “Jesus Christ–a Great Mystery,” and “God’s Commanded Holy Days.”



https://www.eternalgod.org/q-a-7171/
 
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