The Problem of evil

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Try telling people this Story, and then tell them the Story of the Apostle Paul and all he suffered, and retained his faith.

No..........his faith grew STRONGER because of what he endured

You could very well be right, but I at least add that his faith kept being stronger as he reflected on his Powerful Experience with Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road. That near-death experience left him humbled. Added to that were is personal, face-to-face encounters with Jesus. Adding to that was his being caught up in the Third Heaven. Paul's Faith was 100% solid to the degree that in his written Word, he told us 18 times to model ourselves after him, that in by doing so, we would be modeling Christ.

I wish that all people had their own Damascus Road experience . . . perhaps they, too, would turn from being murderers to preachers within about two weeks.

 

[posthuman]

Did the Jews have freewill? Isaiah and Paul say no, they didn't. Below, Paul quotes Isaiah 29:10

KJV - "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

no human will is absolutely free in an objective sense.

but God told Adam he may freely eat from all the trees in the garden, save one.
that's not Adam being a 100% puppet. that's god giving Adam freedom.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

no human will is absolutely free in an objective sense.

but God told Adam he may freely eat from all the trees in the garden, save one.
that's not Adam being a 100% puppet. that's god giving Adam freedom.

I hear you. I don't know if you accept extra-Biblical sources, but the Book of Jubilees, I believe, teaches that Adam and Eve sinned exactly after seven years in the garden to the day. Seven. That's not a mistake, but a Holy Control of the Lord.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

What would YOU say to people who say they do not believe in God because bad things happen to good people. And what would you say to someone who experienced horrible hardship, and as a result lost their faith.

For example, Elie Wiesel was born in 1928 in Sighet Transylvania in Romania. He deeply believed in Judaism . When he was 15 Nazis invaded and ended up taking him to the worst concentration camp, Auschwitz. He and his father were forced to walk to Buna after three weeks in Auschwitz. He ended up losing his faith. And in total he spent 13 months in concentration camps. We can only imagine the horrible things that happened there and the horrible things he had to endure.

He wrote a book called “Night” and it was about his experiences. He won a Nobel peace prize. And as I said, because of the evil that he was forced to go through, because of everything that happened he lost his faith.

His poem “Never shall I ever” https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/never-shall-i-forget-by-elie-wiesel/

We have an honorable police officer, a criminal, and video footage of the event.

The officer arrives to arrest the criminal.

The criminal has committed murder.

We have video footage of the murder and the officer arresting the criminal.

A detective watches the video footage of the crime and sees the horrible evil the criminal committed, but he fails to watch the officer arrest him.

Due to this, he believes the officer never arrived.

The detective gets depressed and thinks no one will stop this criminal. He loses faith in the badge and decides to walk away.

One day another detective visits his home to find him lost in depression. The second detective wishes to show the first detective the end of the video footage.

It instantly restored his faith in the badge.

Evil exists, but we have evidence to know good exists.

The criminal exists, but we have the evidence to know the officer exists as well. But we have to be willing to look, willing to believe. The murder was evil, but the knowledge of knowing the officer arrived gave the first detective the confidence and assurance needed to have faith even if he was neck-deep in emotions.

 

[posthuman]

I hear you. I don't know if you accept extra-Biblical sources, but the Book of Jubilees, I believe, teaches that Adam and Eve sinned exactly after seven years in the garden to the day. Seven. That's not a mistake, but a Holy Control of the Lord.

there's a good argument for 33, too

 

[Cyberm]

Try telling people this Story, and then tell them the Story of the Apostle Paul and all he suffered, and retained his faith.

No..........his faith grew STRONGER because of what he endured

I find it hard to compare the experience Paul willingly put himself through (in the sense that he knew what the consequences of him spreading the gospel would be and had a choice to do so or not) and someone who was taken from their home and put in one of the worst concentration camps in all of history where they were treated like rapid dogs in the street

 

[Gideon300]

What would YOU say to people who say they do not believe in God because bad things happen to good people. And what would you say to someone who experienced horrible hardship, and as a result lost their faith.

For example, Elie Wiesel was born in 1928 in Sighet Transylvania in Romania. He deeply believed in Judaism . When he was 15 Nazis invaded and ended up taking him to the worst concentration camp, Auschwitz. He and his father were forced to walk to Buna after three weeks in Auschwitz. He ended up losing his faith. And in total he spent 13 months in concentration camps. We can only imagine the horrible things that happened there and the horrible things he had to endure.

He wrote a book called “Night” and it was about his experiences. He won a Nobel peace prize. And as I said, because of the evil that he was forced to go through, because of everything that happened he lost his faith.

His poem “Never shall I ever” https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/never-shall-i-forget-by-elie-wiesel/

All of the Jews in Europe suffered terribly in WW2. At least he survived to talk about it. 6 million did not. He had faith in Judaism. That will not save anyone.

People do wicked things to other people. It's as old as Cain and Abel. If God wanted to rid the world of evil, He would have to kill every human being. And that's what I tell people who think God tolerates evil.

God loved us enough to send Jesus to die for us. He is the only innocent man. He is the only one pure enough to pay for all the sins of all mankind.

Look up Corrie Ten Boom. I've read her book, "The Hiding Place". I don't exactly how long she and her family spent in Ravensbruck concentration camp. Four of her family died there. She did not lose faith. If anything, she was stronger as a result of her ordeal. She died at the age of 91 after over 30 years

A movie has been made of the book, but I've not seen it.

People have a choice as to how they respond to tribulation. The wise run to God. Others turn away from God.

 

[Cyberm]

We have an honorable police officer, a criminal, and video footage of the event.

The officer arrives to arrest the criminal.

The criminal has committed murder.

We have video footage of the murder and the officer arresting the criminal.

A detective watches the video footage of the crime and sees the horrible evil the criminal committed, but he fails to watch the officer arrest him.

Due to this, he believes the officer never arrived.

The detective gets depressed and thinks no one will stop this criminal. He loses faith in the badge and decides to walk away.

One day another detective visits his home to find him lost in depression. The second detective wishes to show the first detective the end of the video footage.

It instantly restored his faith in the badge.

Evil exists, but we have evidence to know good exists.

The criminal exists, but we have the evidence to know the officer exists as well. But we have to be willing to look, willing to believe. The murder was evil, but the knowledge of knowing the officer arrived gave the first detective the confidence and assurance needed to have faith even if he was neck-deep in emotions.

So how does this relate to the people who lost faith in God because something horrid and tragic happened to them?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

there's a good argument for 33, too

3's a amazing throughout our amazing Bible. Do you have an example of 33? I'd like to add that to my running commentary that I'm working on.

 

[Journeyman]

What would YOU say to people who say they do not believe in God because bad things happen to good people. And what would you say to someone who experienced horrible hardship, and as a result lost their faith.

I would say no one has had more bad committed against him than God. I would tell anyone who has experienced horrible hardship to consider our sweet Savior Jesus, who forgave his tormentors.

 

[Cyberm]

I would say no one has had more bad committed against him than God. I would tell anyone who has experienced horrible hardship to consider our sweet Savior Jesus, who forgave his tormentors.

With all due respect, I very much feel that that could be taken as highly insensitive to someone who has experienced very horrid trauma.

Person 1: *explaines why they don’t believe in God anymore because of all the trauma they experienced*

Person 2: “Well, God has experienced way more trauma then you, and has had more bad stuff committed against him. He can forgive those who wrong him, why can’t you?”

You have such pure intentions but that is essentially how that would sound to someone who experienced hardship and evil, due to the acts of others. They could take it very badly.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So how does this relate to the people who lost faith in God because something horrid and tragic happened to them?

Is their faith based in emotion or facts. How does my pain and suffering eliminate my need for salvation?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Person 1: *explains why they don’t believe in God anymore because of all the trauma they experienced*

That would be my uncle. He was one of the first pilots shot down and captured in Vietnam. He was tortured for 7 years. Because of his torture, he despises the God concept. I'm confident that the Lord will come to him, even perhaps while on his deathbed. God loves those who endure such hardship, even if it simply means to remain alive after the unbelievable events.

He sustained all kinds and forms of torture, including kneeling for days on end, that if and when he fell asleep, they'd beat him. Our soldier's knees would swell with fluids and eventually burst underneath their own weight. They would not give in. Our soldiers would not cave.

All military personnel should be extended our incredible forms of human grace.

 

[Cyberm]

Is their faith based in emotion or facts. How does my pain and suffering eliminate my need for salvation?

It doesn’t. But their thought proc

That would be my uncle. He was one of the first pilots shot down and captured in Vietnam. He was tortured for 7 years. Because of his torture, he despises the God concept. I'm confident that the Lord will come to him, even perhaps while on his deathbed. God loves those who endure such hardship, even if it simply means to remain alive after the unbelievable events.

He sustained all kinds and forms of torture, including kneeling for days on end, that if and when he fell asleep, they'd beat him. Our soldier's knees would swell with fluids and eventually burst underneath their own weight. They would not give in. Our soldiers would not cave.

All military personnel should be extended our incredible forms of human grace.

Goodness gracious. Isn’t doing such inhumane form of torture a war crime!? Well anyway, I hope your uncle is doing well.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It doesn’t. But their thought proc


Goodness gracious. Isn’t doing such inhumane form of torture a war crime!? Well anyway, I hope your uncle is doing well.

Thank you, and no . . . he has failed miserably in this life.

 

[Cyberm]

Thank you, and no . . . he has failed miserably in this life.

Oh wow, I’m sorry to hear that. You mind if I ask how he has failed in life?

 

[PennEd]

So how does this relate to the people who lost faith in God because something horrid and tragic happened to them?

What did he “ lose faith” of?

Certainly not a belief in Jesus Christ death to pay for his sins, and resurrection.

So it matters not what the heck else he had “faith” in. He never had the one true faith to begin with!

 

[Cyberm]

What did he “ lose faith” of?

Certainly not a belief in Jesus Christ death to pay for his sins, and resurrection.

So it matters not what the heck else he had “faith” in. He never had the one true faith to begin with!

This is all hypothetical. We are talking about examples when people lose their faith due to tragic, horrible, and evil experiences they went through. It has happened before.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It doesn’t. But their thought proc


Goodness gracious. Isn’t doing such inhumane form of torture a war crime!? Well anyway, I hope your uncle is doing well.

It is illogical but we often when caught in emotion fail to be logical.

 

[Journeyman]

You have such pure intentions but that is essentially how that would sound to someone who experienced hardship and evil, due to the acts of others. They could take it very badly.

They would take it badly, if I rephrased my statement like you did.