Warning Against Women

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Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#61
You have brought up Proverbs and asked your question in that context.
That portion of Proverbs is written in the context of instructions from a father to a son.

8Hear, my son, your father’s instruction,
and forsake not your mother’s teaching,
9for they are a graceful garland for your head
and pendants for your neck.
10My son, if sinners entice you,
do not consent. ...

So if he had a daughter he was writing to it would have been presented in that context and would have warned her about how to avoid the ungodly man out to lead her astray from the paths of life...

The instructions that were given in these verses can apply to either man or woman when understood that they are about how to avoid sin.

The ungodly woman in Proverbs is a personfication of foolishness, or folly, as in willful sin and wickedness. It is contrasted with the godly woman of WISDOM or fearing God and following the scriptures.

Much of the bible uses the male form of him, or man, but we know it means all humans male and female.
For example all of the instructions given to the young man about how to live righteously and avoid sin apply to both man and woman, and when it uses the example of an ungodly woman trying to entice him, the same could be said for an ungodly man trying to entice a woman. Why does it not use that example? Only because the book is written as if it is a Father instructing a son, and there was no need to make another book about a Father instructing a daughter in which all the exact same things would have been said except for the different situations like telling her to turn down the mans advances in whatever way it was that men tried to lure women to bed in those days which we all know full well that they did.
No need for another example with different gender roles because it would end up saying the exact same thing which is why both man and woman can follow the instructions of proverbs just fine.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#62
You have brought up Proverbs and asked your question in that context.
That portion of Proverbs is written in the context of instructions from a father to a son.

8Hear, my son, your father’s instruction,
and forsake not your mother’s teaching,
9for they are a graceful garland for your head
and pendants for your neck.
10My son, if sinners entice you,
do not consent. ...

So if he had a daughter he was writing to it would have been presented in that context and would have warned her about how to avoid the ungodly man out to lead her astray from the paths of life...

The instructions that were given in these verses can apply to either man or woman when understood that they are about how to avoid sin.

The ungodly woman in Proverbs is a personfication of foolishness, or folly, as in willful sin and wickedness. It is contrasted with the godly woman of WISDOM or fearing God and following the scriptures.

Much of the bible uses the male form of him, or man, but we know it means all humans male and female.
For example all of the instructions given to the young man about how to live righteously and avoid sin apply to both man and woman, and when it uses the example of an ungodly woman trying to entice him, the same could be said for an ungodly man trying to entice a woman. Why does it not use that example? Only because the book is written as if it is a Father instructing a son, and there was no need to make another book about a Father instructing a daughter in which all the exact same things would have been said except for the different situations like telling her to turn down the mans advances in whatever way it was that men tried to lure women to bed in those days which we all know full well that they did.
No need for another example with different gender roles because it would end up saying the exact same thing which is why both man and woman can follow the instructions of proverbs just fine.
I get what you’re saying and yes it applies to all of humanity but the Bible does specifically warn men about women. But it’s ok I know many of my questions will not get answers.

Proverbs 5

12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.

Solomon here seems to be saying that he acknowledges that he was disobedient and how his ways were evil and then goes on to say the following:

15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, andrivers of waters in the streets.17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

Proverbs 6

20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: 21 Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.

Yes, the father is instructing his son and also warns him not to forsake the law of his mother then goes on to say this:

22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and whenthou awakest, it shall talk with thee.23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction arethe way of life:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.34 For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.
 
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SophieT

Guest
#63
Whereabouts, and in what context? I'd say it is because men are generally forthright with their intentions, but women generally are more seductive and clandestine. Look at Samson and Delilah. He just wanted a wife - she pretended to love him, but betrayed him for money and power.
the word generally to describe about half of the world's population is ridiculous

I would say believe me, with what I am about to say.....but why would you

anyway, if you don't think men are also seductive and sneaky and happy to be that way, then I would say you have never been a woman

go check out the Biden (cough cough) administration...buncha sneaky, deceptive liars, seducing half the country and parts of the world...not Afghanistan though
 
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SophieT

Guest
#64
These are referring to prostitutes marketing their "services", not to women in general.
sad to say, some of the men in this forum generally view women that way

if the poster thinks that describes women in general, then he will find plenty to suit his tastes
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#65
I get what you’re saying and yes it applies to all of humanity but the Bible does specifically warn men about women. But it’s ok I know many of my questions will not get answers.

Proverbs 5

12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.

Solomon here seems to be saying that he acknowledges that he was disobedient and how his ways were evil and then goes on to say the following:

15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, andrivers of waters in the streets.17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

Proverbs 6

20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: 21 Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.

Yes, the father is instructing his son and also warns him not to forsake the law of his mother then goes on to say this:

22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and whenthou awakest, it shall talk with thee.23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction arethe way of life:24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry;31 But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; he shall give all the substance of his house.32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.34 For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.
Your question was clearly answered.

The reason that Proverbs warns the son about the flattering woman, is that it is addressing a son as advice from the father about how to watch out for flattering women. To somehow conclude that it does not address men who are whoremongers and wanton fornicators as often as it does women simply means you have not read enough, or retained enough of what you have read yet.

Keep reading, you will soon learn that the bible says more about males being whoremongers, flatterers, and manipulators than it does about women doing these things.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#66
Your question was clearly answered.

The reason that Proverbs warns the son about the flattering woman, is that it is addressing a son as advice from the father about how to watch out for flattering women. To somehow conclude that it does not address men who are whoremongers and wanton fornicators as often as it does women simply means you have not read enough, or retained enough of what you have read yet.

Keep reading, you will soon learn that the bible says more about males being whoremongers, flatterers, and manipulators than it does about women doing these things.
I should also add that scholars (who understand Hebrew poetry and are expert in ancient Hebrew literature) explain that there are two women in proverbs. The one who seduces is a personification of sin in general. The Foolish Woman in proverbs is an allegory of sin in general and how we are to avoid it's attempts to get us to follow it's enticement.
The other woman is Wisdom. It is the instructions of this father, and involves how to avoid sin and chose to do the will of God instead. The scriptures are the guide to how to follow this Wisdom woman.

So if you don't get the symbolism of Folly and Wisdom contrasted as two kinds of women in Proverbs you miss a lot. This is why understanding things like Hebrew poetry, is important in hermeutics (the science of biblical interpretation) with the Old Testament books like Proverbs, Psalms, Song of Solomon.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#67
sad to say, some of the men in this forum generally view women that way

if the poster thinks that describes women in general, then he will find plenty to suit his tastes
Sometimes I think that people purposely like to call people by opposite pronouns just to insult, that is sad to see but not surprising on a forum. It's also sad to see women on Christian forums, described in Proverbs, as strange women. Not sure why anyone thinks that I was referring to prostitution or calling all women prostitutes.
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#68
Your question was clearly answered.

The reason that Proverbs warns the son about the flattering woman, is that it is addressing a son as advice from the father about how to watch out for flattering women. To somehow conclude that it does not address men who are whoremongers and wanton fornicators as often as it does women simply means you have not read enough, or retained enough of what you have read yet.

Keep reading, you will soon learn that the bible says more about males being whoremongers, flatterers, and manipulators than it does about women doing these things.
My question was not answered as I was not asking if the Bible addresses men who are whoremongers and wanton fornicators, nor was I asking why the Bible or if the Bible addresses women that are whoremongers and wanton fornicators.

I asked, "Why does the Bible warn men about women?"

then on post #8 I asked again, "Why does the bible tell men to be careful with women and not the other way around?" and now Since like you say the Bible describes men to be more whoremongerish, flatterish, and manipulators?

My question also was not why the Bible personifies Wisdom as a woman nor sin as a strange woman. In my reply to your initial post, I showed how yes, the passage can be taken as a personification of Wisdom as a woman but the Bible, in this case, like you say, a father is specifically warning his male son about women.

And I don't believe entirely that is a personification of Wisdom.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#71
I didn't revive the thread and no it wasn't.
Yes it was answered in post #53: The fundamental reason is that men are easily seduced, and often fail to see the "honey traps". There are examples in the Bible (Delilah being a good example) and also in real life...
 
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SophieT

Guest
#72
Sometimes I think that people purposely like to call people by opposite pronouns just to insult, that is sad to see but not surprising on a forum. It's also sad to see women on Christian forums, described in Proverbs, as strange women. Not sure why anyone thinks that I was referring to prostitution or calling all women prostitutes.
well, I would say your post 6 is a contributing factor

you've been here since '19 and you have not seen the rhetoric directed against ALL women from some members here?

good if you are not lumping us all together though. I do try not to lump all men together ;) :coffee:
 
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SophieT

Guest
#73
Yes it was answered in post #53: The fundamental reason is that men are easily seduced, and often fail to see the "honey traps". There are examples in the Bible (Delilah being a good example) and also in real life...

yeah

honey traps

with men as the bee keepers :sneaky:
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#74
well, I would say your post 6 is a contributing factor

you've been here since '19 and you have not seen the rhetoric directed against ALL women from some members here?

good if you are not lumping us all together though. I do try not to lump all men together ;):coffee:
I'd say it is because men are generally forthright with their intentions, but women generally are more seductive and clandestine.
I generally agree with the seductive and clandestine bit.
In context he was saying that men are forthright with their intentions. I was agreeing that women are not forthright with their intentions and generally are more seductive and clandestine:

clandestine
[klanˈdestən, ˈklandesˌtīn]

ADJECTIVE
  1. kept secret or done secretively, especially because illicit.
    "she deserved better than these clandestine meetings"
    synonyms:
    secret · covert · furtive · surreptitious · stealthy · cloak-and-dagger · hole-and-corner · hole-in-the-corner · closet · behind-the-scenes · backstairs · back-alley · under-the-table · hugger-mugger · concealed · hidden · private · sly · sneaky · underhand · undercover · underground · black
I have found far more women to be this that men, not sure why anyone, even women, would take offense to observable facts. And if you must know I don't sit all day every day to read each thread posted. I generally only read threads I'm participating in or click on ones with interesting titles or topics I like. I have yet to read a thread or post with rhetoric against women except maybe one which I refrained from responding to because it would be unchristian of me to do so.

I know where I lump men and where I lump women, I have reasons for that.
 
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SophieT

Guest
#77
In context he was saying that men are forthright with their intentions. I was agreeing that women are not forthright with their intentions and generally are more seductive and clandestine:

clandestine
[klanˈdestən, ˈklandesˌtīn]

ADJECTIVE
  1. kept secret or done secretively, especially because illicit.
    "she deserved better than these clandestine meetings"
    synonyms:
    secret · covert · furtive · surreptitious · stealthy · cloak-and-dagger · hole-and-corner · hole-in-the-corner · closet · behind-the-scenes · backstairs · back-alley · under-the-table · hugger-mugger · concealed · hidden · private · sly · sneaky · underhand · undercover · underground · black
I have found far more women to be this that men, not sure why anyone, even women, would take offense to observable facts. And if you must know I don't sit all day every day to read each thread posted. I generally only read threads I'm participating in or click on ones with interesting titles or topics I like. I have yet to read a thread or post with rhetoric against women except maybe one which I refrained from responding to because it would be unchristian of me to do so.

I know where I lump men and where I lump women, I have reasons for that.
well I'm glad you know when you get lumpy, but personally, I do not find that an endearing trait

I may go a little overboard on details, but I was born that way

oh you don't sit all day and read all threads? well then, I guess you got lucky here and we certainly do not want unchristian in the BDF. that would be....unchristian

I am female and very straight forward and I object to people of any/either (really just 2) sex painting with broad brushes over anyone

why folks could take offense at such things! :eek: but you can be as clandestine as you feel any situation deserves
 
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SophieT

Guest
#78
As long as you don't mess with Queen Bee Sophie.:D
that stings Nehemiah ;)

I have never entrapped a man but have had a good number try to do so to me

not you of course
 

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#79
well I'm glad you know when you get lumpy, but personally, I do not find that an endearing trait

I may go a little overboard on details, but I was born that way

oh you don't sit all day and read all threads? well then, I guess you got lucky here and we certainly do not want unchristian in the BDF. that would be....unchristian

I am female and very straight forward and I object to people of any/either (really just 2) sex painting with broad brushes over anyone

why folks could take offense at such things! :eek: but you can be as clandestine as you feel any situation deserves
that stings Nehemiah ;)

I have never entrapped a man but have had a good number try to do so to me

not you of course

LOL my assertions are proven correct, yet again :rolleyes: shame, good day to you.