Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[tigerwillow17]

Hi...what rude comments?

your asinine, supersonically redonkuolous claim

Please don't think I am singling you out, because I am not. I know there are many other people on here who post rude comments, but until I find something in common with them and get to know a little bit more about them, I don't find it necessary to get involved. I am still new here and have not yet read a lot of the threads, but as I spend more time here on CC and get to know people, I am sure more conversations like this will come up. Once you stated that you are SDA, your posts suddenly became more meaningful to me because I felt I could relate to you better so my ears perked up and your words stood out to me more than they would have otherwise.

I was specifically referring to your comment in the quote above. I thought the words you chose were unChristlike and needed to be toned back a bit. I get it, these threads can get quite heated and sometimes posts need to be reproved, but these kinds of responses distract from any meaningful discussion on the thread and gives the impression that you don't care enough about other people to respect their choice of opinions even when they go against your grain. The people who are not here just to argue, but to actually seek for answers, will eventually stop trying to listen to your side and may completely miss something really powerful you have to say. I am sure this is not your intention, so I hope you understand where I am coming from.

 

[1ofthem]

Clearly the reference to Abraham's bosom is not literal. It is in reference to a place where the saved go upon dying. Well, according to Luke 16 anyhow.

Also, I've not read in there that Lazarus could actually see or had any knowledge of the rich man. The rich man spoke only with Abraham. There is a spiritual meaning in that, I am sure.

Just my thoughts, God is not going to place the saved in a position where they can see the lost being tormented. I also don't believe he is going to drag them off and burn them in front of us on judgement day.

First of all, the dead in Christ is going to rise. Then the second resurrection. I think those of the second resurrection are going to be judged last.

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. However, we do know that we will all that are in Christ (dead or alive) at his coming will be called up in the air to meet the Lord. So again, this is just my thoughts, but seems this will take place before God's final judgment on this earth takes place. At this time, the earth will be destroyed, and sinners will face their eternal punishment where they will have no rest day nor night and will be tormented in the Lake of Fire where their worm will never die, and the fire will never be quenched.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I also might add to this, if this is literal, then the people in this place of comfort get to watch are possibly their old friends, maybe some family members, some coworkers, the baker down the street, people you thought were saved in church, and many more.

If this is literal then this "place of comfort" is only "comfortable", relatively speaking, to the other possible alternative of being in torment. The place of relative comfort seems to be safer and cooler, but you have noisy neighbors who don't stop begging you for help day and night.

This doesn't necessarily imply you get to be happy in the place of comfort; if the souls of people still have a caring heart they'll spend their time horrified and scared, while listening to the incessant begs for mercy, until their hearts are calloused and desensitized to the torment of others.

By the time people have finished their tour of comfort, they will have PTSD, some will be hardened, some will be hollow shells of their former selves, forever haunted by the torment of that baker down the street who didn't heed the gospel.

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION GOD EVEN THOUGH HE INVITES US TO REASON TOGETHER WITH HIM???!!!

(I agree, what possible comfort can be derived from watching a wayward son or daughter burn for all eternity, and wondering what we could have done differently to help them be spared of this supposed fate? Surely, their must be those of the Eternal Torment crowd who love their children more than life itself; are they satisfied with the prospect of watching them writhe in the "unspeakable agony of eternal blazing torment" for all eternity? We can't even bare to watch them suffer a tummyache, right?)

 

[1ofthem]

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION GOD EVEN THOUGH HE INVITES US TO REASON TOGETHER WITH HIM???!!!

(I agree, what possible comfort can be derived from watching a wayward son or daughter burn for all eternity, and wondering what we could have done differently to help them be spared of this supposed fate? Surely, their must be those of the Eternal Torment crowd who love their children more than life itself; are they satisfied with the prospect of watching them writhe in the "unspeakable agony of eternal blazing torment" for all eternity? We can't even bare to watch them suffer a tummyache, right?)

I don't believe He is going to drag them off at judgment day and burn them in front of us either.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Please don't think I am singling you out, because I am not. I know there are many other people on here who post rude comments, but until I find something in common with them and get to know a little bit more about them, I don't find it necessary to get involved. I am still new here and have not yet read a lot of the threads, but as I spend more time here on CC and get to know people, I am sure more conversations like this will come up. Once you stated that you are SDA, your posts suddenly became more meaningful to me because I felt I could relate to you better so my ears perked up and your words stood out to me more than they would have otherwise.

I was specifically referring to your comment in the quote above. I thought the words you chose were unChristlike and needed to be toned back a bit. I get it, these threads can get quite heated and sometimes posts need to be reproved, but these kinds of responses distract from any meaningful discussion on the thread and gives the impression that you don't care enough about other people to respect their choice of opinions even when they go against your grain. The people who are not here just to argue, but to actually seek for answers, will eventually stop trying to listen to your side and may completely miss something really powerful you have to say. I am sure this is not your intention, so I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Asinine: :"foolish"
Redonkulous: "a level of ridiculousness achieved only by the practice of extreme, unnecessary obstinance."

One also might consider it "rude" to openly criticize a person's character, but I've noticed that also about life long SDAs - they think they've a corner on the market for love, compassion, patience, longsuffering, but let someone lift up their head and call sin and false doctrine by it's rightful name and out come the claws, fangs, horns.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I don't believe He is going to drag them off at judgment day and burn them in front of us either.

Doesn't the Bible say "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked"? Sure it does.

 

[1ofthem]

Doesn't the Bible say "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked"? Sure it does.

Guess, it does. So, what is the difference then?

I mean are there any that could sit back and watch their family and friends being burned to death and be happy about it.

Couldn't that mean we will see them left behind for judgment knowing what is getting ready to take place for them. Like I said, I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture so I'm not talking about that blasphemous movie "left behind" or anything like it. I just don't think we are going to have to see the full wrath of God being fulfilled upon the lost.

If that were the case, then surely there would be tears and sorrow involved in that for us.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Guess, it does. So, what is the difference then?

I mean are there any that could sit back and watch their family and friends being burned to death and be happy about it.

Couldn't that mean we will see them left behind for judgment knowing what is getting ready to take place for them. Like I said, I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture so I'm not talking about that blasphemous movie "left behind" or anything like it. I just don't think we are going to have to see the full wrath of God being fulfilled upon the lost. If that were the case, then surely there would be tears and sorrow involved in that for us.

It talks about the wicked falling by the multiplied thousands at our sides and ten thousands at our right hand - that's not beholding them being led away to punishment...that's beholding them being punished, for all eternity some might say. I can't see how the Eternal Torment crowd can be pleased with the notion they're going to watch their unsaved children burn for all eternity and be in "comfort" by that. I mean, I can see where Lazarus might have been OK with the Rich Man suffering...after all, he wouldn't share his french fries

 

[John146]

Really, read the verses I posted.

Yes, I was joking…

 

[John146]

So, we're supposed to ignore the numerous, obviously symbolic, Biblical and reality defying elements of Luke 16 such as:

1. dead people wearing bodies before the resurrection
2. men completely engulfed in flame able to converse lucidly
3. Abraham's bosom being many square miles in size...

and then impose a completely subjective "hermeneutical rule" that the use of proper names in a passage disqualifies it from being a parable even though the reason Jesus chose to use the name "Lazarus" is made evident not long after when Lazarus "rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31 KJV) and Jesus' prediction that "neither will (the other sons of Abraham, the Jews) be persuaded though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31 KJV) was not only fulfilled, but these stubborn Jews went away to take counsel on how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus?

1. yes, your soul can speak, feel, and see
2. yep
3. yep

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Now, imagine your entire body on fire.

It's often assumed that the rich man is aflame; but Luke 16:24 suggests
he's in fire rather than on fire. In other words; he's walking amidst flames
overheated and dehydrated but not kindled like a human torch, viz: he's baking
rather than incinerating.
_

 

[posthuman]

And yet we decide on which are the Best by which do the better job of making a case using the rules of hermeneutics. And I think that the case for the dogs licking his sores as another layer of humiliation suffered by the beggar has always been presented as the best argument from those who dive into the syntax of the language and know what they are talking about. At this time I rely on these textual manuscript and language experts to present their case because I do not yet have that expert knowledge. However, using contextual rules, both immediate and also the entire bible I am confident that it is as I have stated.

So even though there are differences of opinion that have continued through the centuries it does not mean that the truth is not known or cannot be knowns since often those differences of opinion do a poor job of presenting their logic in the discussion whether they have been committed to print or no.

if it is a parable, who is typologically representing Christ in it?

 

[CS1]

There is no need to make assumptions. We do not know each other beyond the CC forum. I am a life-long SDA, but I am definitely not bored and I am not afraid to stand up for what I believe. I love to study the Bible and I get excited about sharing the good news with other people. I passionately ask God to help me be a part of His mission to help people experience salvation for themselves, so they can have freedom from Satan's snares here on this earth and the promise of everlasting life. I do agree with you that the 3AM will go out with a loud voice, however it is not loud with noise that people hear but don't respond to, but loud in life-changing power to bring people to Jesus.

Where we differ is our approach in how we try to reach out to people. I am a gentle soul at heart and so it is not in my nature to stir up conflict. I prefer to get to know people so they are comfortable having open discussions where both of us are free to speak our opinions. During the conversation, I ask God to help my words and thoughts be from Him so that I don't mess up any opportunity to help that person find Jesus by jumping to my own conclusions. Then I actively try to understand the other side by listening and asking thoughtful questions and encourage the other person to do the same. After our conversations, I pray for that person and ask the Holy Spirit to lead them from that point forward according to His will.

I have tried the method of just pushing my belief on someone before listening to them first. It never ends well and just results in both of us getting more stubborn in our own opinions which can get ugly. I try not to argue with people as that just makes them get defensive and put up walls which defeats the whole purpose of reaching out to them. It also continues to affirm in people's minds that Christians can be stubborn, judgmental people who won't listen to anyone but themselves.

As for Jesus, I never once thought of Him as rude because there are many times that EGW describes Jesus speaking with tears in His voice as He rebukes His accusers because of His deep love and concern for them. His words may have been rough, but His tone (which we can't always pick up on by just reading the account) was full of compassion.

Everything you have said is fine and from a feeling perspective, yet none of what you have said is Biblical in context to Hell not being an eternal place of torment as Jesus said it is. The word of God is what matters most, not how we make people feel about themselves when the possibility of hell forever is going to be their final home of record.

 

[posthuman]

1. yes, your soul can speak, feel, and see
2. yep
3. yep

for (3) i'm not sure that we ought to be thinking of the habitation of the soul in terms of cubic feet, as though souls are physical objects or their home is a physical place with merely physical measure. IMO that's probably not legitimate math; measuring the spirit requires an algebra apart from cartesian coordinates.
for example when God declares, 'do not I fill heaven and earth?' that isn't a comment on His waistline or what a big shoe size He wears . . after all, He fit fully inside a human male: Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Amanuensis]

You'd be right if the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus wasn't a parable.

I mean, do you really think Abraham's literal bosom is several square miles in size? Abraham musta had one heck of a tailor.

Or, do you believe the dead get their resurrection bodies LONG BEFORE the resurrection?

The parable is not about the size of anything and nothing like that is mentioned. That argument fell flat. The Parable has a lesson and there is only one way to know what it is. Reading it. The lesson is clearly what it says at the end, just like most parables. Stick to your argument that it is a parable and identify the lesson in the normal way most parables work. The lesson is usually at or near the end.

I think you keep leaving the premise of your argument and not dealing with the lesson of the parable as it is stated in the parable. You can't say it is a parable not to be taken literally, and then say that the lesson is to point to the fact that the Bible warns them of judgment to come and then say it isnt about the Bible warning them of judgment to come which is what you and the other SDA brother seem to be doing.

Your argument that it is not about the size of Abrahams bosom, or that it is not about literal flames, does not prove that it is not about judgment that awaits the wicked dead who do not show mercy. That you must concede.

What that judgment literally looks like you don't know and I don't know and I agree that knowing what it literally looks like is not the point.

However KNOWING that an unpleasant judgment awaits those who live like the rich man, ignores the warnings in the scriptures, and that they will soon learn first hand IF THEY DONT believe what the Scriptures say now, is the point.

And also the clincher.... that which makes it a true parable according to Hebrew literature if it is indeed a parable as you say that it is, would be the final twist... IF someone does not believe what the bible says about the place of torment that he wanted Lazarus to tell his brothers about, they will NOT believe even if Lazarus visits them.

The point being that real life changing faith that reforms will NOT come from such a supernatural visit or sign. It will only come from believing the Word of God.

At this point you should say. You are right.. that is superior logic and hermeneutics. I concede.

 

[tigerwillow17]

Leviticus 19:17 KJV is clear that love for our Christian brothers is shown by trying to reason with them about the danger they're in, so what does it mean when all we do is tell them "Daddy loves you"

I completely agree with you. Part of showing love to others includes informing them of the danger they may be in and not watering down the gospel to where all it it means to the hearer is "God loves you". These words alone are just fluff that sounds nice but do not stimulate the hearer to take any action or think twice about making a change.

I would like to continue this discussion with you. Please pm me so we can continue talking and allow this thread to stay on topic. I would love to hear more of your story!

 

[Runningman]

Also, I've not read in there that Lazarus could actually see or had any knowledge of the rich man. The rich man spoke only with Abraham. There is a spiritual meaning in that, I am sure.

True it does not explicitly say Lazarus could see or hear anything, but the Rich Man could see Lazarus and Abraham. I guess Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (I personally take that to mean Lazarus is just reclining on Abraham's chest, though Luke 16:22 literally says Lazarus went into or inside of Abraham's chest cavity) while Abraham was conversing with the Rich Man. I think leaning on someone's chest was kind of a normal thing they did back then (see John 13:23 "Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.")

Could Lazarus hear that conversation between the Rich Man and Abraham? Being literally inside of Abraham's chest it might be a bit dark and the words muffled so if this is literal then Lazarus probably had no idea what was happening.

Or we are forced to spiritualize some or all of Luke 16:19-31.

 

[tigerwillow17]

One also might consider it "rude" to openly criticize a person's character, but I've noticed that also about life long SDAs - they think they've a corner on the market for love, compassion, patience, longsuffering, but let someone lift up their head and call sin and false doctrine by it's rightful name and out come the claws, fangs, horns.

"Rude" might have been a bit stronger than I meant and I was not thinking with fangs, claws, or horns when I wrote that, so I apologize. Please understand my intent was not to criticize your character but rather to let you know how your choice of words came across to me.

 

[TheLearner]

What's the punishment? IT'S DEATH! Not "eternal torment", but death. If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could take away our sin debt would be that HE BE ETERNALLY TORMENTED. Please think about that for a while.

You ignored the main point as I expect by a dishonest person. The main point is the dead are alive and aware of their surroundings. Since Isaiah says the worms do not die, then that is in effect what he meant because they reproduce.

Mark 9:48
The worms that eat the people in hell[grave] never die. The fire there is never stopped.

If you want to call Jesus a liar, don't stand next to me at the final judgement.

You are right, "Jesus talks about eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46"[/QUOTE] Please listen to yourself: "The dead are alive".

If there was ever a more twisted strain of logic, it is to say that the dead are alive. God said we will die..the Serpent said, "Not surely"...and just about the entire Christian world believes the Serpent rather than God.[/QUOTE]
I never wrote anything about Hitler in this thread.

"Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον). The word κολασιν comes from κολαζω, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια (vengeance) and κολασις. But the same adjective αιωνιος is used with κολασιν and ζωην. If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν, we may likewise have only age-long ζωην. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος (from αιων, age, αεςυμ, αε) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (αιωνες των αιωνων)." https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/matthew-25.html

If you limit eternal punishment with nonsense you are spewing, then you have also put the same limit on "eternal life".

 

[TheLearner]

How can you say that? when the text says the place where he was at was so bad he begged for someone to warn his family? He asked for cold water "For I am IN Torment!" torment is only discomfort? Hell is like back pain?

"
Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Torment
TOR'MENT, noun [Latin tormentum.; torqueo, torno; Eng. tour; that is, from twisting, straining.]

1. Extreme pain; anguish; the utmost degree of misery, either of body or mind.

The more I see

Pleasure about me, so much I feel

Torment within me.

Lest they also come into this place of torment Luke 16:28. Revelation 9:5. 14.

2. That which gives pain, vexation or misery.

They brought to him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments. Matthew 4:24.

3. An engine for casting stones.

TORMENT', verb transitive To put to extreme pain or anguish; to inflict excruciating pain and misery, either of body or mind.

Art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. Revelation 14:11.

1. To pain; to distress.

Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. Matthew 8:29.

2. To tease; to vex; to harass; as, to be tormented with importunities, or with petty annoyances.

3. To put into great agitation.

They soaring on main wing

Tormented all the air. [Unusual.]
"

http://kingjamesbibledictionary.com/Dictionary/torment

https://biblehub.com/topical/t/torment.htm