The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[cv5]

Nowhere, do we see where God removed His People from Earth to avoid Tribulation.

1. Noah, had to build an Ark and board the Ark, God [did not miraculously remove Noah from the Flood] but made him go through it

2. Lot, God did not Miraculously remove Him, Lot was given specific Orders he had to Obey to survive

3. God made Moses face Pharaoh and go through the Same Plagues as Egypt

4. Isaiah, did not escape being cut into half

5. Shadrach-Meshach-Abednego, did not Escape the Furnace and had to be tossed into it.

6. Daniel, had to face the Lions

7. The Apostles, did not escape torture and horrendous death [except one because he Received the Apocalypse]


So, why do us GENTILES, who are Grafted into the Fold, believe we will escape?

Denial, is why!

You fail to understand the sharp distinctiveness between Israel and the Church.

In your mind, you are blending Old Testament saints and Israel with the Church and expecting the same outcome for both. This thinking is completely wrong.

Both the Church (the Bride) AND the rapture are a mystery "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25). Paul confirms that this novel, unique Church phenomenon is a mystery because he uses this term at least 15 times!

On the other hand the covenants to Abraham, Israel and David are not secrets. On the contrary they are spelled out in black and white in no uncertain terms.....backed up with enormous amounts of prophecy as to their ultimate fulfillment.

Consequently their destinies......and their destinations......are quite different at the end of the age/beginning of the new age.

Israel goes through the tribulation wrath and a REMNANT providentially survives....PER PROPHECY.

The Church is removed from the time and place of tribulation wrath, and ALL believers are saved from it without exception....PER THE REVELATION OF THIS MYSTERY.

The Old Testament types and Paul's clear teachings on the rapture bear this out.

 

[cv5]

Christ explained in Matthew 24, [after] Tribulation, He Returns and Gathers [there is NOTHING that states the Gathering does not include both Dead and Alive].

Paul in 2nd Thess, explains the process of how Both Dead and Alive are Rapture'd


Christ lays the outline.
Paul fills in the Specifics.

The Second Coming is the Rapture!

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
^
Nowhere does it mention these are all Alive Elect, it just states Gather His Elect [that could mean both Dead and Alive]



SHOW ME WHERE CHRIST IN MATTHEW 24 SPEAKS OF HIS SECOND COMING THAT THE ELECT HE GATHERS IS 100% ALIVE, AND NOT THE RAPTURE, WHERE HE GATHERS HIS ELECT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

Bush league scholarship my friend. Not even close....
There are fundamental themes and concepts that completely escape your attention. Tragically.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

cv5

Really, SHOW ME WHERE THE ELECT CHRIST'S ANGELS GATHER [Matthew 24 - After Tribulation Ends] ARE 100% ALIVE, AND NOT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

 

[Absolutely]

Christ explained in Matthew 24, [after] Tribulation, He Returns and Gathers [there is NOTHING that states the Gathering does not include both Dead and Alive].

Paul in 2nd Thess, explains the process of how Both Dead and Alive are Rapture'd


Christ lays the outline.
Paul fills in the Specifics.

The Second Coming is the Rapture!

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
^
Nowhere does it mention these are all Alive Elect, it just states Gather His Elect [that could mean both Dead and Alive]



SHOW ME WHERE CHRIST IN MATTHEW 24 SPEAKS OF HIS SECOND COMING THAT THE ELECT HE GATHERS IS 100% ALIVE, AND NOT THE RAPTURE, WHERE HE GATHERS HIS ELECT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

If you believe the rapture is at the white horses then you just spoke against it being so.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Israel goes through the tribulation wrath and a REMNANT providentially survives....PER PROPHECY.

Yes. And this is what Isaiah 27:[9],12-13 is talking about (re: Israel), and thus what Jesus' Subject is in Matthew 24:29-31 [also in Rom11:27[15,25], 9:26/Hos1:10-11/Hos2:23a [not 23b re: Gentiles], Isa11:11-12, Ezek37:12-14,20-23, Dan9:24-27 [esp. v.24... same as Isa27:9], , and on and on...]

 

[Absolutely]

cv5

Really, SHOW ME WHERE THE ELECT CHRIST'S ANGELS GATHER [Matthew 24 - After Tribulation Ends] ARE 100% ALIVE, AND NOT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

That dimension is your personal perspective.
We both can stand in the street and argue back and forth whether the house really does have a back door.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

That dimension is your personal perspective.
We both can stand in the street and argue back and forth whether the house really does have a back door.

No, Jesus SAID, He Returns Once to Gather His Elect, you claim Twice [a Secret NON BIBLICAL COMING].

So, the Burden of proof is on you!

SHOW ME WHERE THE ELECT CHRIST'S ANGELS GATHER [Matthew 24 - After Tribulation Ends] ARE 100% ALIVE, AND NOT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

 

[Absolutely]

No, Jesus SAID, He Returns Once to Gather His Elect, you claim Twice [a Secret NON BIBLICAL COMING].

So, the Burden of proof is on you!

SHOW ME WHERE THE ELECT CHRIST'S ANGELS GATHER [Matthew 24 - After Tribulation Ends] ARE 100% ALIVE, AND NOT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

You are making a claim.
Emphatically declaring it.

Yet you omit the verses shooting you down.
You Also refuse to take one of our verses and unpack it.

You don't get it. We have the verses. You do not..

But hey omit the verses that prove you wrong.

But don't claim any legitimacy in your position.
You are masterfully taking yourself out.

 

[Absolutely]

No, Jesus SAID, He Returns Once to Gather His Elect, you claim Twice [a Secret NON BIBLICAL COMING].

So, the Burden of proof is on you!

SHOW ME WHERE THE ELECT CHRIST'S ANGELS GATHER [Matthew 24 - After Tribulation Ends] ARE 100% ALIVE, AND NOT BOTH DEAD AND ALIVE?

Just walk around to the other side.
See for yourself.

Omitting verses will prevent you...not me

 

[Heaven_Bound]

^
I don't care about Your Excuses, You made the claim of Pre-Trib Rapture that includes both Dead and Alive Saints.

Now, Prove that the Saints Christ gathers on his Second Coming are all 100% Alive, and not both Dead and Alive!

 

[cv5]

Just walk around to the other side.
See for yourself.

Omitting verses will prevent you...not me

HB......"Omitting verses"
You can say that again....

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I was not going to get involved into this discussion, so I prayed and sought God. And i felt the Holy Spirit in my spirit ask, Where did I say, when I Return and gather my People, they are only those who are living?

So, I am asking you, where is the Proof?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

HB......"Omitting verses"
You can say that again....

No Verses to Omit if Christ's Second Coming is the Rapture.

So, when Christ Returns [after Tribulation], where does it claim He only gathers those who are Alive, and not both those of His who are Dead and Alive?

 

[1ofthem]

No Verses to Omit if Christ's Second Coming is the Rapture.

So, when Christ Returns [after Tribulation], where does it claim He only gathers those who are Alive, and not both those of His who are Dead and Alive?

It don't. Scripture states the exact opposite. We will be called up together with them.

1Thess. 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No Verses to Omit if Christ's Second Coming is the Rapture.

So, when Christ Returns [after Tribulation], where does it claim He only gathers those who are Alive, and not both those of His who are Dead and Alive?

Heaven_Bound, ask yourself (and examine the Scriptures): "Before Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse [and I would INCLUDE His Olivet Discourse words], WHERE DID HE ever cover the Subject of 'the "SNATCH [/ CAUGHT UP / RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] / HARPAZO / and "the MEETING OF THE LORD" up there / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" *UP THERE*]" ?






[Answ: He hadn't yet; everything He had spoken of PRIOR TO the Olivet Discourse (AND INCLUDING His RESPONSE WITHIN AND THROUGHOUT IT) was covering the Subject of His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised AND PROPHESIED *EARTHLY* Millennial Kingdom age (and the brief period of time that will immediately PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO that point)...]

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Heaven_Bound, ask yourself (and examine the Scriptures): "Before Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse [and I would INCLUDE His Olivet Discourse words], WHERE DID HE ever cover the Subject of 'the "SNATCH [/ CAUGHT UP / RAPTURE [IN THE AIR] / HARPAZO / and "the MEETING OF THE LORD" up there / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" *UP THERE*]" ?






[Answ: He hadn't yet; everything He had spoken of PRIOR TO the Olivet Discourse (AND INCLUDING His RESPONSE WITHIN AND THROUGHOUT IT) was covering the Subject of His SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised AND PROPHESIED *EARTHLY* Millennial Kingdom age (and the brief period of time that will immediately PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO that point)...]

Ask myself what, to Deny the Holy Spirit?

If God says, where did I say when He comes, He only gathers the LIVING, then prove it?

So, YOU PROVE IT!

WHERE DOES CHRIST SAY AT HIS SECOND COMING IT IS ONLY FOR THE LIVING?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

It don't. Scripture states the exact opposite. We will be called up together with them.

1Thess. 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Amen!

 

[cv5]

^
I don't care about Your Excuses, You made the claim of Pre-Trib Rapture that includes both Dead and Alive Saints.

Now, Prove that the Saints Christ gathers on his Second Coming are all 100% Alive, and not both Dead and Alive!

You just don't get it man. The Church has already been gathered/raptured (those still living and those deceased......all of them) at least seven years before the Second Coming.

Therefore this question you ask is completely irrelevant.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

You just don't get it man. The Church has already been gathered/raptured (those still living and those deceased......all of them) at least seven years before the Second Coming.

Therefore this question you ask is completely irrelevant.

I get it that you want Christ to have 2 Comings, but He Himself said He ONLY COMES one more time.

So, prove, when He comes and GATHERS His PEOPLE, they are all LIVING!

What i do get, YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR BIBLE AT ALL!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I supplied a PARTIAL answer in my Post #965 toward the TOP of this PAGE ^ .

The problem is, you are divorcing the "OT prophecies" regarding HIS SAME SUBJECT, for some reason (I can only suspect why).


I've also provided in past posts (perhaps even in this thread) the SIMILAR LANGUAGE Jesus uses here, to that of the language / expressions used in Jeremiah 49:36, which says, "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."

(speaking of these ppl being SCATTERED TO ALL NATIONS... whereas in Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:[9],12-13 [Isa11:11-12], (etc) it is the OPPOSITE ACTION... and "gathering" FROM there, into ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH... Isaiah 27:[9],12-13 states TO WHERE ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM")... and that they will be "gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel"--a COMPLETELY *DISTINCT MANNER* of "gather" from that of "our SNATCH" which will clearly be "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY"], from the wording used in 1Th4 etc, on THAT Subject ["our SNATCH / RAPTURE"], as well as in 1Cor15:51-53 "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"... "WE shall all be changed IN A MOMENT...")





[now, this is NOT to say that OT saints will not be "resurrected [definition: 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" at the END of the Trib yrs, also... THEY WILL!! Daniel 12:13 speaks of it... Job 19:25-27 speaks of it... Martha also WELL-KNEW of it!!... But note that Paul states, "Behold I SHEW you a MYSTERY"... before he goes on to speak of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" and the "in the twinkling of an eye" moment, that speaks of a specific time-slot that comes PRIOR TO the "IN THE NIGHT" ["DARK / DARKNESS" / "NIGHT WATCHES"] time-period [ASPECT OF "the DOTL" very lengthy TIME PERIOD], aka the 7 TRIB YRS which are INCLUDED IN "the DOTL" time period, i.e. the DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT / NIGHT WATCHES ASPECT *OF* it (involving the "BoBPs/SEALS" and "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME)]