Works

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OIC1965 said:
Question for you. I will not debate your answer, just want to understand your position.

In August of 1988, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit and repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He radically transformed my heart in an instant. It was in my bedroom in the middle of the night. I did not call a preacher to baptize me that night, but starting the next day, I made arrangements to get into my mother's church and arranged for my baptism asap because I wanted to follow my Saviour's teachings and example. Was I saved that night in my bedroom, or was I saved when I was baptized? Was I justified that night, or when I was baptized? Was I indwelt with the Spirit that night or when I was baptized? If i had died before I was baptized, would I have perished? So you can say either a. saved and right with God that night I believed or b. Not saved until baptized. Thanks in advance.
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You sure were saved thanks to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
An calling on the name of Jesus
 
justbyfaith said:
Act 13:48, And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

There is no mention in Acts of these believers ever being baptized; which is not to say that they were never baptized.

If they believed and were ordained to eternal life as the result, might being baptized later be a part of that ordination?

Of course, the Philippian jailer was told, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house; was baptized almost immediately after.

Not sure I have the answer to your question, just wanted to add these thoughts.
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Thanks for your reply. We know that Cornelius was saved before he was baptized.

Of course I believe baptism is necessary. All the commandments of Jesus are necessary. They are commands, not suggestions.

The question at hand is “ what is necessary to be saved”. If I had died that night before I got baptized, I have no doubt I would have went to heaven. I also have no doubt that God forgave my sins and I received the gift of the Holy Spirit that night.

So yes, baptism is necessary in that all believers are called to be disciples and to be taught to observe all that Christ commanded, but I don’t believe baptism is what saves.
 
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BillG said:
You sure were saved thanks to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
An calling on the name of Jesus
Click to expand...

Amen brother. We are saved when we are United and baptized into the blessed Christ AND His work by the blessed Holy Spirit. Water baptism typifies and symbolized this, just as the bread and wine symbolize the act of receiving the atonement through Christ’s body and blood. But the bread and wine do not give life, The body and blood (perfect work) of Christ give life.
 
Coming late to the discussion. My dad was a Southern Baptist preacher, and I remember as a kid he preached on salvation; that it remains the same through the ages. It always has been "by grace, through faith." "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6) "For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

It is a common misunderstanding that Jews of the Old Testament were saved by works. Contemporary Judaism focuses on works, but it is not the same as 1st cen Judaism. Judaism today thinks more in terms of a national salvation, and the better they keep the commandments in Torah the sooner the messiah will come. 1st cen Judaism thought in terms of both personal and national salvation. Frankly, I think if we looked at it as they did the world might be in less of a mess today.

Works never saved anyone: "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." (Isaiah 64:6 ESV) No one, then or now can keep the commandments perfectly. So if salvation was by works in the OT, no one would have ever been saved. They, like us were saved by God's grace, His unmerited favor, and their faith in that same God.

The 1st 5 books of Moses, like the rest of our Bible served 2 main purposes: to point us to the Christ (Messiah), and instruct us in how to walk holy beside a Holy God. That's all works are- holiness. As such those works are as much a part of our lives as believers today as they were in the days of Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Daniel, David, ... . "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ... So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 2:14,17 ESV)

Works cannot save us, however because we are saved we should want to do those works: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15 ESV) And nothing in this life stagnates. You like water are either moving forward or you will stagnate, your faith turning rancid. Not to open another debate, but one of the doctrines I cam to question from my youth is "eternal security" as viewed by the Southern Baptists. 2 ways (in my view) you can loose your salvation: 1) rebellion- you can choose to walk away, and 2) stagnation. If we are not living for God ("works") then our faith and our witness are dead, stagnant, useless.

Works cannot save, but they are important to our salvation.
 
OIC1965 said:
Question for you. I will not debate your answer, just want to understand your position.

In August of 1988, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit and repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. He radically transformed my heart in an instant. It was in my bedroom in the middle of the night. I did not call a preacher to baptize me that night, but starting the next day, I made arrangements to get into my mother's church and arranged for my baptism asap because I wanted to follow my Saviour's teachings and example. Was I saved that night in my bedroom, or was I saved when I was baptized? Was I justified that night, or when I was baptized? Was I indwelt with the Spirit that night or when I was baptized? If i had died before I was baptized, would I have perished? So you can say either a. saved and right with God that night I believed or b. Not saved until baptized. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

God knew what was in your heart...not I or anyone. I cannot speak for God, except to say that God is a forgiving, understanding, considerate and loving God who wishes no one to be lost. Any answers to your query...is pure folly.
I think you are asking if you were .....born again...that night. We know we are not saved while on this earth. We are ...born again...only while here.

Your purposed question applies here;.....a person decides on wednesday that he is going to church sunday and confess his sins...this after much contemplation. Sunday morning he gets up at 6 a m and dies of a heart attack.....?
 
cdan2 said:
Coming late to the discussion. My dad was a Southern Baptist preacher, and I remember as a kid he preached on salvation; that it remains the same through the ages. It always has been "by grace, through faith." "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6) "For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3)

It is a common misunderstanding that Jews of the Old Testament were saved by works. Contemporary Judaism focuses on works, but it is not the same as 1st cen Judaism. Judaism today thinks more in terms of a national salvation, and the better they keep the commandments in Torah the sooner the messiah will come. 1st cen Judaism thought in terms of both personal and national salvation. Frankly, I think if we looked at it as they did the world might be in less of a mess today.

Works never saved anyone: "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." (Isaiah 64:6 ESV) No one, then or now can keep the commandments perfectly. So if salvation was by works in the OT, no one would have ever been saved. They, like us were saved by God's grace, His unmerited favor, and their faith in that same God.

The 1st 5 books of Moses, like the rest of our Bible served 2 main purposes: to point us to the Christ (Messiah), and instruct us in how to walk holy beside a Holy God. That's all works are- holiness. As such those works are as much a part of our lives as believers today as they were in the days of Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Daniel, David, ... . "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ... So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 2:14,17 ESV)

Works cannot save us, however because we are saved we should want to do those works: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15 ESV) And nothing in this life stagnates. You like water are either moving forward or you will stagnate, your faith turning rancid. Not to open another debate, but one of the doctrines I cam to question from my youth is "eternal security" as viewed by the Southern Baptists. 2 ways (in my view) you can loose your salvation: 1) rebellion- you can choose to walk away, and 2) stagnation. If we are not living for God ("works") then our faith and our witness are dead, stagnant, useless.

Works cannot save, but they are important to our salvation.
Click to expand...

The Bible says...faith without works is dead.
 
BillG said:
You sure were saved thanks to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
An calling on the name of Jesus
Click to expand...

For you to say thst is an afront to God. The Bible says....it is appointed unto man once to die...then the judgement. If He is saved( past tense, done...history) what is God going to judge. Hopefully you mean ...born again.
Further, you don't know what was in the heart...God did.
 
peldom10 said:
God knew what was in your heart...not I or anyone. I cannot speak for God, except to say that God is a forgiving, understanding, considerate and loving God who wishes no one to be lost. Any answers to your query...is pure folly.
I think you are asking if you were .....born again...that night. We know we are not saved while on this earth. We are ...born again...only while here.

Your purposed question applies here;.....a person decides on wednesday that he is going to church sunday and confess his sins...this after much contemplation. Sunday morning he gets up at 6 a m and dies of a heart attack.....?
Click to expand...

For by Grace are you saved…not will be saved, are saved. There is a threefold aspect of salvation.

a. Past tense- regenerated, justified, receive Spirit, etc. finished work of Christ

b. Present- sanctification, preservation, Christ’s Priestly Mediation for believers.

C. Future. Glorification at Christ’s second coming.

…and you don’t have to go to church to confess sins. I do it anywhere. When I’m driving, at work, wherever I need to confess to God. That’s one thing that is awesome about Jesus being our Priesr.
 
peldom10 said:
For you to say thst is an afront to God. The Bible says....it is appointed unto man once to die...then the judgement. If He is saved( past tense, done...history) what is God going to judge. Hopefully you mean ...born again.
Further, you don't know what was in the heart...God did.
Click to expand...

He means if I truly repented and believed, I was saved. And he can say that because it’s what the Bible says. He can say it on authority from the scriptures.
 
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OIC1965 said:
For by Grace are you saved…not will be saved, are saved. There is a threefold aspect of salvation.

a. Past tense- regenerated, justified, receive Spirit, etc. finished work of Christ

b. Present- sanctification, preservation, Christ’s Priestly Mediation for believers.

C. Future. Glorification at Christ’s second coming.

…and you don’t have to go to church to confess sins. I do it anywhere. When I’m driving, at work, wherever I need to confess to God. That’s one thing that is awesome about Jesus being our Priesr.
Click to expand...


So when does ...born again apply?
You confess sin when committed. We are not in church all the time.
Who said that?
 
peldom10 said:
The Bible says...faith without works is dead.
Click to expand...
Yes, I quoted that: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ... So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." (James 2:14,17 ESV)

But you are correct, that verse does sort of summarize my entire post.
 
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Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

To be born again.........

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Water baptism and being born of the Spirit are both part of being born again.

Water baptism is an outward commitment to a new life of living in the Spirit not the flesh.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are .......
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit.........
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Jesus died to free us from the condemnation of Sin we need to die to the flesh and live in the Spirit. We are naturally born after the flesh with all the sinful lusts inherited since Adam, but we can be born again, and choose to live in the Spirit of Jesus.

Dying to the flesh each day and surrendering the heart to Jesus and the Spirit. = born again.
 
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OIC1965 said:
For by Grace are you saved…not will be saved, are saved. There is a threefold aspect of salvation.

a. Past tense- regenerated, justified, receive Spirit, etc. finished work of Christ

b. Present- sanctification, preservation, Christ’s Priestly Mediation for believers.

C. Future. Glorification at Christ’s second coming.

…and you don’t have to go to church to confess sins. I do it anywhere. When I’m driving, at work, wherever I need to confess to God. That’s one thing that is awesome about Jesus being our Priesr.
Click to expand...
Amen brother that is the truth.
That truth is Jesus and he sets us free.
 
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peldom10 said:
So when does ...born again apply?
You confess sin when committed. We are not in church all the time.
Who said that?
Click to expand...

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.; (1 John 5:1-5)

Believe- Present tense.

Has been born of God. PERFECT PASSIVE, meaning that it is a completed, finished work accomplished in the past, and that the believer is the receiver of the action, not the doer and God is the one who begets him.

Your hypothetical situation mentioned a person that waited until Sunday to confess sin.
 
OIC1965 said:
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.; (1 John 5:1-5)

Believe- Present tense.

Has been born of God. PERFECT PASSIVE, meaning that it is a completed, finished work accomplished in the past, and that the believer is the receiver of the action, not the doer and God is the one who begets him.

Your hypothetical situation mentioned a person that waited until Sunday to confess sin.
Click to expand...

And also the perfect tense means that the action produces results that continue into the present.
 
TMS said:
Mat_26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

To be born again.........

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Water baptism and being born of the Spirit are both part of being born again.

Water baptism is an outward commitment to a new life of living in the Spirit not the flesh.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are .......
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit.........
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Jesus died to free us from the condemnation of Sin we need to die to the flesh and live in the Spirit. We are naturally born after the flesh with all the sinful lusts inherited since Adam, but we can be born again, and choose to live in the Spirit of Jesus.

Dying to the flesh each day and surrendering the heart to Jesus and the Spirit. = born again.
Click to expand...

It is the Spirit that baptizes us into Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13. So as the Spirit baptizes us into Christ, we become united with Him in His death and resurrection. His death becomes our death and His Life becomes our life, It is the Spirit that makes us NEW CREATIONS. Water Baptism is a sign that typifies these realities. Water Baptism could not make one a new creation. Only the Holy Spirit can.
 
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