Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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kleronomos said:
I do understand your position on this. I see what you believe. A perfect example of milk remaining milk.
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No, it's a perfect example of how there is no dichotomy between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law unless one chooses to make the Letter of the Law the means by which to obtain salvation.

Your position is an example of what's called "willful ignorance" because if it were not so, you'd be able to explain how it is a man can be keeping the Spirit of the Law while breaking the Letter...which you can't.

Therefore, my position - that if we're keeping the Spirit, we're automatically keeping the Letter - is correct, while yours is a pile of spiritually immature bulldookey.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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kleronomos said:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How does this change take place according to your Gen2:7 belief?
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Why should it? Don't we get the "spiritual body" at the resurrection of the Just?
kleronomos said:
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

DO THE SPIRIT AND SOUL DIE WHEN THE FIRST BODY DIES?
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Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV says at death the Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the dust, and since Genesis 2:7 KJV says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, at death when these two dissunion, based on this what can be the ONLY conclusion for what happens to the Soul?
 
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kleronomos

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Phoneman-777 said:
No, it's a perfect example of how there is no dichotomy between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law unless one chooses to make the Letter of the Law the means by which to obtain salvation.

Your position is an example of what's called "willful ignorance" because if it were not so, you'd be able to explain how it is a man can be keeping the Spirit of the Law while breaking the Letter...which you can't.

Therefore, my position - that if we're keeping the Spirit, we're automatically keeping the Letter - is correct, while yours is a pile of spiritually immature bulldookey.
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That is what you believe. That doesn't make it truth. You can say it more forcefully and still it doesn't make it anything but "the only truth you know". I can say this an hundred more times, and you won't see what I am saying. I can say it from a bunch of different angles and you won't get it. One day you may, till then no need for us to discuss any more. I understand what you believe. Nothing has changed. You want to say it again, then tell me again what I understand and you still wont understand what I am saying. We could go down the next road 'what do you consider law' and what you don't consider the law, but you will have picked the one that leads you back to a 'doctrine' you believe is found in Gen 2:7 and stake your entire belief on that one and only premise and everything must fit into that. So you probably have the soul dying even though we are given the gift of Salvation, eternal life.

Let see, what is the opposite of life? DEATH. Jesus promises life, He says 'He is the life'. Do you believe that or do you believe in death? If your doctrine DICTATES something different then I would say there is a problem. If you need to attach an 'explanation' to be understood so we can understand 'what is meant' aka Hath God said.

So, OK. I am sure who ever reads this post will be able to read both sides and get a pretty good idea of where we differ. I am just starting to repeat myself so thank you.
 
K

kleronomos

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Phoneman-777 said:
Why should it? Don't we get the "spiritual body" at the resurrection of the Just?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV says at death the Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the dust, and since Genesis 2:7 KJV says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, at death when these two dissunion, based on this what can be the ONLY conclusion for what happens to the Soul?
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My point.
 
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Onesimus63

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11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess Deut 30:11-16

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

2Cor3:6-9

Moses said it would not be too difficult or beyond the reach of the Israelites to obey the law handed down at Sanai. However, Paul stated the letter killed and was the ministry of death and condemnation. Why the difference between the two?

In my view, Moses was speaking of the Spirit of the law, and Paul the letter of the law. It is impossible for man to perfectly obey the letter of ‘’thou shalt not’’ There is no wiggle room for error. Perfectly obey the law or stand guilty before it. If even one person could have perfectly obeyed the letter there would have been no need for Christ to die at Calvary for peoples sins, for it would have been possible for man never to commit sin. Paul had been an ardent Pharisee, the letter of the law was everything.

I believe Moses was speaking of the Spirit of the law, in respect that the people should in their hearts want to follow the law. But though they would want to follow it and their lives would generally reflect obedience to it, they never would perfectly obey the law/the letter of the law due to human limitations. That should not be so difficult to do, for the limitations of man are allowed for. That in my view is the difference between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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FreeGrace2 said:
Let's see what the Bible says about this.

Romans 5-
12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

I think passage is very clear and straightforward. We are sinners BECAUSE of Adam.

You are free to make up your own mind.
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It clearly says death came to people because they sinned their own sins. Nothing from Adam is inherited.
 
Evmur

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Phoneman-777 said:
The nation of Israel blew it - God's promises are CONDITIONAL but I can't expect people who think they can withdraw their surrender to Jesus and yet still go to heaven to understand that.
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No they are not conditional apart from the conditions that God lays upon them. That sounds like double talk but it is not.
What is conditional is whether a people or a person will be blest and happy servants of God or whether they will be sorrowful and under punishment. They are still the chosen [elect] people of God.

THAT is what election means. Jacob was chosen [elect] over Esau before he did anything good or bad. Election doesn't depend upon us but upon God. Before he did good or evil/before he accepted Christ or rejected Him.

Israel as a people are under God's punishment but they are still God's people. And God's punishment was that they should be cast out of the land and dispersed among the nations ... that is what told them and that is exactly what we see ... but YOU stop there. The prophecies do not, the prophecies speak about them being brought home to their own land, ALL of them. Of their being made glorious in the latter times.

Paul says
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and call of God are IRREVOCABLE.

The promise cannot be revoked. Israel has not stumbled so as to fall.

And God has got a quarrel with the nations, In dispersing the Jews He never said anything about poking them into cattle trucks to be hideously murdered. Jacob's trouble is the trouble [tribulation] the GREAT trouble [tribulation] which is coming upon the nations because of the way they have persecuted Jacob. .... and the church has been part of it.
 
J

justpassinthrough

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Phoneman-777 said:
Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming.
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The time frame in which “God will bring with Him” is the Second Coming.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16





JPT
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

I believe what Paul wrote in Romans 5, which I shared with you.
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You have misread it. It doesn't say sin was passed down from Adam. It says sin entered because of Adam, and death through sin and death came to all people because they also sinned. Neither sin nor sin nature is passed down from Adam.



Romans 5-
12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
We sin BECAUSE of the inherited fallen nature from Adam.

I believe what Paul wrote in Romans 5, which I shared with you.
ewq1938 said:
You have misread it. It doesn't say sin was passed down from Adam. It says sin entered because of Adam, and death through sin and death came to all people because they also sinned. Neither sin nor sin nature is passed down from Adam.

Romans 5-
12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
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Apparently you don't understand what "sin entered the world through one man"

From Dr Utley's commentary on Romans:
"because all sinned" All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly. The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. Gen. 6:5,12-13; 8:21; 1 Kgs. 8:46; 2 Chr. 6:36; Job 4:17; 9:2; 15:14-16; 25:4; Ps. 14:1,3; 51:5; 130:3; 143:2; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; Isa. 53:6; Rom. 3:9,19,23; 11:32; Gal. 3:22; Eph. 2:2-3; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8-10).
Yet it must be said that the contextual emphasis (cf. Rom. 5:15-19) is that one act caused death (Adam) and one act causes life (Jesus).
The translation "because" is common, but its meaning is often disputed.
 
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kleronomos

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Phoneman-777 said:
So, you agree the Living Soul cannot continue to exist when the Spirit returns to God and the Body to the dust?
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Matthew 10:28 And not you should be afraid of those killing the body -
THIS IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE LIVING SOUL THAT CANNOT CONTINUE TO EXIST WHEN THE SPIRIT returns to God and the BODY to dust


THE DEATH OF THE BODY DOESN'T MEAN DEATH OF THE SOUL

the however soul not being able to kill,


ONLY GOD CAN KILL THE SOUL
you should fear however rather the [One] being able both soul and body to destroy in hell
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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kleronomos said:
Matthew 10:28 And not you should be afraid of those killing the body -
THIS IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE LIVING SOUL THAT CANNOT CONTINUE TO EXIST WHEN THE SPIRIT returns to God and the BODY to dust


THE DEATH OF THE BODY DOESN'T MEAN DEATH OF THE SOUL

the however soul not being able to kill,


ONLY GOD CAN KILL THE SOUL
you should fear however rather the [One] being able both soul and body to destroy in hell
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"Kill the body but not the soul" refers to the causing the First Death in a person, while "destroy both body and soul in hell" refers to the Second Death...WHICH IS NOT ETERNAL LIFE IN FLAMES, but eternal, permanent death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation thereof.
 
K

kleronomos

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Phoneman-777 said:
"Kill the body but not the soul" refers to the causing the First Death in a person, while "destroy both body and soul in hell" refers to the Second Death...WHICH IS NOT ETERNAL LIFE IN FLAMES, but eternal, permanent death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation thereof.
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I thought you HAD BEEN SAYING when the body dies the soul dies. Just wanted to make sure that wasn't what you were saying because that shows that THE SOUL continues on until THE LAKE OF FIRE. Only GOD CAN KILL A SOUL. MAN CAN NOT. Man can kill THE EARTHEN VESSEL that houses the soul, but not the soul BECAUSE WE HAVE TWO BODIES AND MAN CAN NOT KILL THE SPIRITUAL BODY AND so the soul lives on without the earthen body.
 
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