Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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I'm personally convinced that the two hells revealed in the Bible are real;
however, in my honest opinion are neither reasonable nor sensible. I think
they are monstrous, inhumane, and insane.
There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were
miraculously kept from running out. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a
tiny bit of flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son,
for a good many days during a time of prolonged drought.
Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and
left her deeply in debt. God kept her last pot of oil full so she could sell
enough to pay off her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.
If I knew how God kept those women's flour and oil from running out, then
maybe I could provide an intelligent answer to your inquiry; but I'm utterly
clueless.
_
however, in my honest opinion are neither reasonable nor sensible. I think
they are monstrous, inhumane, and insane.
There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were
miraculously kept from running out. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a
tiny bit of flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son,
for a good many days during a time of prolonged drought.
Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and
left her deeply in debt. God kept her last pot of oil full so she could sell
enough to pay off her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.
If I knew how God kept those women's flour and oil from running out, then
maybe I could provide an intelligent answer to your inquiry; but I'm utterly
clueless.
_
.
There's any number of ways the lost could be making their journeys to the
netherworld. For example instead of being dragged underground by ghastly
beings such as those described in post No.9, they may just fall down into
the ground like water through a sieve.
That's not a ridiculous idea seeing as deceased folk leave this world as
disembodied spirits. According to John 4:24 spirit is immaterial, i.e. it has no
mass to speak of. Spirit's movement isn't impeded by solid materials like
metal and dirt, or wood and stone.
And spirit takes up no space. For example the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 was
possessed by a community of spirits who labeled themselves Legion.
Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army
comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry.
The legion of spirits that left that man went out and took up residence in a
herd of about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take
up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000
6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that
one guy. Just imagine the number of spirits that could fit into the passenger
area of an SUV.
NOTE: Those spirits slipped right out of that man. There was no need to cut
him open so they could evacuate.
_
There's any number of ways the lost could be making their journeys to the
netherworld. For example instead of being dragged underground by ghastly
beings such as those described in post No.9, they may just fall down into
the ground like water through a sieve.
That's not a ridiculous idea seeing as deceased folk leave this world as
disembodied spirits. According to John 4:24 spirit is immaterial, i.e. it has no
mass to speak of. Spirit's movement isn't impeded by solid materials like
metal and dirt, or wood and stone.
And spirit takes up no space. For example the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 was
possessed by a community of spirits who labeled themselves Legion.
Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army
comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry.
The legion of spirits that left that man went out and took up residence in a
herd of about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take
up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000
6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that
one guy. Just imagine the number of spirits that could fit into the passenger
area of an SUV.
NOTE: Those spirits slipped right out of that man. There was no need to cut
him open so they could evacuate.
_
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Matthew 19:26
26...with God all things are possible.
Here's Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 66:24 from the Tanakh:
24"And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."
And as you can see, Isaiah and Daniel are in agreement, but the ones having the feeling of abhorrence, the ones who will be abhorring, are those who are still living. The ones who are still living are the eternally saved who received the gift of eternal life. The wicked do not receive eternal life, e.g. they will not live forever anywhere; they'll cease to exist via destruction.
In the below verses, this is speaking of the resurrection to judgment. The judgement is that they will be destroyed. There won't be wicked people present to feel shame or abhorrence anywhere in creation in the New Heavens and New Earth. I don't want to argue or anything, but I hope this helps.
John 5:29 KJV
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 11:18 KJV
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
26...with God all things are possible.
Here's Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 66:24 from the Tanakh:
24"And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."
And as you can see, Isaiah and Daniel are in agreement, but the ones having the feeling of abhorrence, the ones who will be abhorring, are those who are still living. The ones who are still living are the eternally saved who received the gift of eternal life. The wicked do not receive eternal life, e.g. they will not live forever anywhere; they'll cease to exist via destruction.
In the below verses, this is speaking of the resurrection to judgment. The judgement is that they will be destroyed. There won't be wicked people present to feel shame or abhorrence anywhere in creation in the New Heavens and New Earth. I don't want to argue or anything, but I hope this helps.
John 5:29 KJV
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 11:18 KJV
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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Consider a dinner party.
I want to go to a dinner party because the host is beautiful and there is free food. Some guy comes along and says that I am only going because the host will lock me up and torture me if don't go.
If some guy is shading me fine, whatever. I am quite shallow about free food.
But there is a implication to the host. To me, these are statements that are antithetical, that in itself should merit questioning these doctrines. Boogeymen are meant to control the masses not to inspire them.
2Kgs 4:1-7 Sounds like a fishy story to me. Matthew 14:13-21.
Good luck, I leave the last word to you.
I want to go to a dinner party because the host is beautiful and there is free food. Some guy comes along and says that I am only going because the host will lock me up and torture me if don't go.
If some guy is shading me fine, whatever. I am quite shallow about free food.
But there is a implication to the host. To me, these are statements that are antithetical, that in itself should merit questioning these doctrines. Boogeymen are meant to control the masses not to inspire them.
2Kgs 4:1-7 Sounds like a fishy story to me. Matthew 14:13-21.
Good luck, I leave the last word to you.
Title of this thread ------
Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus:
I think first we need to understand the purpose of Jesus teaching Spiritual Truths in parables -----Jesus is speaking to His Disciples here in Matthew ----
Matthew 13:10-12 AMP
An Explanation
10 Then the disciples came to Him and asked, “Why do You speak to the crowds in parables?”
11 Jesus replied to them, “To you it has been granted to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12 For whoever has [spiritual wisdom because he is receptive to God’s word], to him more will be given, and he will be richly and abundantly supplied; but whoever does not have [spiritual wisdom because he has devalued God’s word], even what he has will be taken away from him.
I say ------So we see that Parables are not just stories ---they are Spiritual truths ------
This Parable with Lazarus and the rich man is the Spiritual Reality of Heaven and Hell -----
All Saints in the Old Testament went to Abraham's bosom ----which some believe was the upper region of Hell or maybe the 2nd Heaven --------as no one in the Old Testament entered the 3rd heaven until Jesus Died and was resurrected and only He could take the Old Testament Saints to God's Heaven -------Paradise was a place of Bliss ---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This Parable also tells us that there is no second chance after death to change your eternal outcome ------The Salvation that is coming is for the here and now -------- when the Rich man asks to have his brothers informed of this torment --he is denied ----saying that if they don't believe Moses and Prophets then they would not listen to a dead man ------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Parable also tells us that you can't serve 2 masters ------the rich man enjoyed his life and possessions he enjoyed his money -----so he fattened himself up for the slaughter ----- the poor beggar was just happy to eat the crumbs left by the rich man and was living his life with the little that he had so God showed him mercy ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Parable tells us that we choose Hell or Heaven all by ourselves ----we cannot blame God or Satan for our personal choice -----we have the teachings ------we decide to believe or not ---
I think this parable is for us today ----it points to the lack of caring for the poor and it gives hope to the oppressed that one day there pain may cease when they believe in the only one who can take away their pain ----If you notice --the beggars Name is Mentioned God that it was important to mention Lazarus-- but the Rich Man's name is not mentioned
This Parable asks the question ---Which Man are we -----Are we trying to serve 2 master -----the rich man had the resources to help the poor and he ignored it --he had no compassion -----do we have the resources to help the poor but have not the compassion to do so -----
This Parable tells us we reap what we sow -------
Important take a ways from this in my view -------
Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus:
I think first we need to understand the purpose of Jesus teaching Spiritual Truths in parables -----Jesus is speaking to His Disciples here in Matthew ----
Matthew 13:10-12 AMP
An Explanation
10 Then the disciples came to Him and asked, “Why do You speak to the crowds in parables?”
11 Jesus replied to them, “To you it has been granted to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12 For whoever has [spiritual wisdom because he is receptive to God’s word], to him more will be given, and he will be richly and abundantly supplied; but whoever does not have [spiritual wisdom because he has devalued God’s word], even what he has will be taken away from him.
I say ------So we see that Parables are not just stories ---they are Spiritual truths ------
This Parable with Lazarus and the rich man is the Spiritual Reality of Heaven and Hell -----
All Saints in the Old Testament went to Abraham's bosom ----which some believe was the upper region of Hell or maybe the 2nd Heaven --------as no one in the Old Testament entered the 3rd heaven until Jesus Died and was resurrected and only He could take the Old Testament Saints to God's Heaven -------Paradise was a place of Bliss ---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This Parable also tells us that there is no second chance after death to change your eternal outcome ------The Salvation that is coming is for the here and now -------- when the Rich man asks to have his brothers informed of this torment --he is denied ----saying that if they don't believe Moses and Prophets then they would not listen to a dead man ------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Parable also tells us that you can't serve 2 masters ------the rich man enjoyed his life and possessions he enjoyed his money -----so he fattened himself up for the slaughter ----- the poor beggar was just happy to eat the crumbs left by the rich man and was living his life with the little that he had so God showed him mercy ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Parable tells us that we choose Hell or Heaven all by ourselves ----we cannot blame God or Satan for our personal choice -----we have the teachings ------we decide to believe or not ---
I think this parable is for us today ----it points to the lack of caring for the poor and it gives hope to the oppressed that one day there pain may cease when they believe in the only one who can take away their pain ----If you notice --the beggars Name is Mentioned God that it was important to mention Lazarus-- but the Rich Man's name is not mentioned
This Parable asks the question ---Which Man are we -----Are we trying to serve 2 master -----the rich man had the resources to help the poor and he ignored it --he had no compassion -----do we have the resources to help the poor but have not the compassion to do so -----
This Parable tells us we reap what we sow -------
Important take a ways from this in my view -------
.
The rich man depicted in Luke 16:19-31 isn't alone down there in Hades.
According to Luke 13:22-24, Matt 7:13-14, and Matt 22:14 the majority of
the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they
cross over to the other side.
"For many are called, but few are chosen."
Bear with me while I flesh this out.
According to the US Census Bureau: as of Jan 17, 2022 @ 12:23 pm New
York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately
332,439,700 with a death rate of approximately one every 11 seconds;
which translates to an average of 7,854 American deaths of all ages, races,
and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.
According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths
were under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,710 of
the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.
Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum
percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,912 American adults
transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 121 per
hour.
That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact
percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think:
by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones
minimum of 61 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the
netherworld.
Using the ratio of 2,912 condemned souls per 332,439,700 population:
computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently
estimated global population of 7,872,203,606 people, would suggest
something like 68,956 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld
every 24 hours; which translates to roughly 2,873 souls every sixty minutes
on the clock.
Yankee Stadium's football seating capacity is 54,251. At the rate of 2,873
souls per hour, those seats would be filled in roughly 18 hours and 53
minutes. In other words: by 00:53 am tonight the stadium's seats would be
maxed if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the
stadium at 06:00 am this morning.
Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death
certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on
those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to
12.2% higher.
The netherworld never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365
nonstop and indifferent to climate change, Wall Street crashes, massive
layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis,
earthquakes, hurricanes, storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and
soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, the price of oil, election fraud,
pipelines, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, Antifa, Black Lives Matter, North
Korea's nukes, Federal debt, overpopulation, desertification, genocides,
revolutions, civil wars, Covid-19, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious
decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking,
and/or US President Joseph Biden's mandates.
If standard Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is
correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading down there to the
rich man in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry
broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their
way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King,
Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to
supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson
vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
_
The rich man depicted in Luke 16:19-31 isn't alone down there in Hades.
According to Luke 13:22-24, Matt 7:13-14, and Matt 22:14 the majority of
the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they
cross over to the other side.
"For many are called, but few are chosen."
Bear with me while I flesh this out.
According to the US Census Bureau: as of Jan 17, 2022 @ 12:23 pm New
York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately
332,439,700 with a death rate of approximately one every 11 seconds;
which translates to an average of 7,854 American deaths of all ages, races,
and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.
According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths
were under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,710 of
the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.
Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum
percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,912 American adults
transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 121 per
hour.
That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact
percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think:
by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones
minimum of 61 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the
netherworld.
Using the ratio of 2,912 condemned souls per 332,439,700 population:
computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently
estimated global population of 7,872,203,606 people, would suggest
something like 68,956 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld
every 24 hours; which translates to roughly 2,873 souls every sixty minutes
on the clock.
Yankee Stadium's football seating capacity is 54,251. At the rate of 2,873
souls per hour, those seats would be filled in roughly 18 hours and 53
minutes. In other words: by 00:53 am tonight the stadium's seats would be
maxed if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the
stadium at 06:00 am this morning.
Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death
certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on
those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to
12.2% higher.
The netherworld never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365
nonstop and indifferent to climate change, Wall Street crashes, massive
layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis,
earthquakes, hurricanes, storm surges, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and
soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, the price of oil, election fraud,
pipelines, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, Antifa, Black Lives Matter, North
Korea's nukes, Federal debt, overpopulation, desertification, genocides,
revolutions, civil wars, Covid-19, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious
decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking,
and/or US President Joseph Biden's mandates.
If standard Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is
correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading down there to the
rich man in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry
broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their
way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King,
Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to
supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson
vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
_
I like how YOU completely IGNORED the fact that Daniel claims they are already buried dead in the ground and then awaken to Eternal Suffering.
Dan 12:2 ''And many of those [[who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake]], these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
You try to twist that THOSE SLEEPING IN THE DUST OF THE GROUND WILL AWAKE as those who were LIVING?
WHAT KIND OF FALSE Doctrine are you pushing that Ignores what the Word of God claims and gives it a new meaning?
Dan 12:2 ''And many of those [[who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake]], these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
You try to twist that THOSE SLEEPING IN THE DUST OF THE GROUND WILL AWAKE as those who were LIVING?
WHAT KIND OF FALSE Doctrine are you pushing that Ignores what the Word of God claims and gives it a new meaning?
You know as I am sure you do that this s the only parable where Jesu used actual names or people Lazerus and a Certain Richman.
If we read prior to this parable Jesus is telling this not from left field but after he said some things that were literal and not figurative to explain eternity. In Luke chapter 13 he Jesus said to repent then spoke on the Barren Fig Tree
The Jesus taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath of this same chapter,
A woman with an infirmity came to Jesus He healed her on the Sabbath. The rulers were upset Jesus told the parable the Mustard Seed, The Parable of the Leaven, and the Narrow Way.
Jesus then prays:
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and [k]assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Luke chapter 14 Jesus again heals on the sabbath. Then told another Parable
Take the Lowly Place,
The Parable of the Great Supper, Lost Sheep,.
If we read prior to this parable Jesus is telling this not from left field but after he said some things that were literal and not figurative to explain eternity. In Luke chapter 13 he Jesus said to repent then spoke on the Barren Fig Tree
The Jesus taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath of this same chapter,
A woman with an infirmity came to Jesus He healed her on the Sabbath. The rulers were upset Jesus told the parable the Mustard Seed, The Parable of the Leaven, and the Narrow Way.
Jesus then prays:
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and [k]assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Luke chapter 14 Jesus again heals on the sabbath. Then told another Parable
Take the Lowly Place,
The Parable of the Great Supper, Lost Sheep,.
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for sure the context preceding Luke 16 gives us a lot of information about why He said these things at this time -- but overall, whether we call it a parable or suspect it's a real account, we can't be imagine that Christ is in this passage preaching 'doctrines of devils' as He has been tacitly accused of in this thread by some people, because it is very clear from the text that Christ is not regarding the death of the body as equivalent to cessation of existence, and He is presenting the torment of the unsaved as very much real and very much perpetual.
either Christ is a liar, or Christ is presenting an accurate picture of what comes after the body returns to dust.
and if we call this a parable - while even literal events ((see: the whole OT)) are recorded in scripture as not only literal but also figures and antitypes and metaphors - even if we call this a parable we have a very profound question remaining about Lazarus: why is he called by name, when in no other parable recorded that Jesus gave, anyone is called by name?
my point being, bro, that while i may side with @Nehemiah6 here and believe it's not a parable, and while you may believe it is, that's a small thing: you and i both know that Jesus is talking about impossible imaginary mythos here. parable or not-parable, what He says and what He describes is based in the true reality, not in fantasy.
on that point we have people taking part in the discussion who do not agree with us, and i guess i'm a bit stuck on trying to turn their opinions around to what we know is true.
that said tho, yeah -- the things leading up to this make it pretty clear that the rich man is at least representative of those vain, unbelieving people who reject Christ, who neglected the poor, and who sought to kill Him. the pharisees are emblematic of that mindset in the NT, and they were generally also rich. it's a natural assumption then that the certain rich man either was himself a pharisee or could easily be understood as an analogy of them.
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I think you're making the assumption that immediately upon awakening the unrighteous will be the ones feeling disgrace and/or contempt. As I showed you in my previous post, the awakening that Daniel speaks of is the resurrection to judgement where they will experience the second death. After having been put to death, there isn't a way for them to feel anything. All of this started when you said that unsaved people have eternal life which is a false gospel. These are my attempts to get you back on the straight and narrow as the Bible has a curse for those who preach a different gospel.
Again, Isaiah 66:24 (directly from the infallible Tanakh) says:
24"And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."
Bear in mind that the context of Isaiah 66:24 is beset in the New Heavens and New Earth. Those who awaken to "disgrace and everlasting contempt" will be confronted with disgrace, but what will be everlasting is the contempt or abhorrence that the righteous feel for the wicked who will be put to death.
As Isaiah 66:24 says "...and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh." means that those who living on the New Earth will feel abhorrence when the see the corpses of the people who rebelled against God.
Again, Isaiah 66:24 (directly from the infallible Tanakh) says:
24"And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."
Bear in mind that the context of Isaiah 66:24 is beset in the New Heavens and New Earth. Those who awaken to "disgrace and everlasting contempt" will be confronted with disgrace, but what will be everlasting is the contempt or abhorrence that the righteous feel for the wicked who will be put to death.
As Isaiah 66:24 says "...and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh." means that those who living on the New Earth will feel abhorrence when the see the corpses of the people who rebelled against God.