Cessationism and Continuationism

[Aerials1978]

Credible evidence, no one who believes in cessionism wants credible evidence. They believe there is such a thing. So as another poster said, each believes what they believe, why cause division?

You’re making an assumption based on feelings and not actuality. If I have certain evidence based in scripture and historical records to indicate God gave certain people specific gifts at a particular point in time and that has ended that for now, some will say that I don’t enough faith and that’s just not true. Saying what’s true for me and not for thee is a logical fallacy. God does not operate on what you or I believe to be truth.

 

[CS1]

When McArthur and others who have studied the Scriptures say "speaking in tongues is of the devil" they commit egregious sin.

Saying the Gifts have ceased for today is complete ignorance and from a hardened religious self righteous heart of unbelief.

well, from the context of it being of the devil was from the Hindu praying which he associated to the foolishness we see on TV and youtube

Using your jacket to knock a herd of people out is foolishness

 

[Aerials1978]

Dear Aerials1978,
Peace and Love in Christ Jesus our Lord.

i can show you, beyond any shadow of doubt, if you open your heart to faith & complete trust in the Word, the Truth as it is written.

Do you desire Truth above 'respect of persons' or do yo see christian churches and their appointed leaders as Truth???

This what I am taking about: not having enough faith which is not accurate. No one as of yet has asked me why I have this line of thinking. Instead accusations are used.

 

[DavidTree]

This what I am taking about: not having enough faith which is not accurate. No one as of yet has asked me why I have this line of thinking. Instead accusations are used.

What is your line of thinking?

 

[SophieT]

I agree and yes I have read strange fire. I have formulated a good argument for that which many have not been able to answer.

IN the end two things we must do just two



1. leave him alone
2. correct ourselves


That it. I don't like using names now I will and do think it is right to address the wrong understanding.


1. they say the gifts have ceased.
Please show in the word of God

2. in 1cor 13:8-10.
It does say that

3. yes it does you need to study more and no about the canonization the gifts are no longer needed.
Can't you show me in the bible?

4. well, it is clear if you look at pagan practices like kunnduni Hindu praying this is something.
Why are you looking outside the word of God to disprove what is in the word of God? can't you show me where in the bible the gifts are not for today?

5. well, k. Copeland, and this guy and that lady are demonized.

Ok, so because they are in error the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not real or for today? So you want me to look at the foolishness of those who are abusing the gifts and not HOLD YOUR FEET TO the FIRE that you can't show me in the word of God where the Gifts are not for today BE you have not seen it. Even IF the Word of God doesn't say they have stopped?

That is the same thing you are doing they you accuse others of doing, that is unbiblical.

Michael Brown has written a very good response to MacArthur's claims

Authentic Fire

the rest of your post was a reply to someone else I think?

 

[CS1]

Michael Brown has written a very good response to MacArthur's claims

Authentic Fire

the rest of your post was a reply to someone else I think?

yes I have seen Michael Brown, there was one debate I watched that was not Brown but a guy from NY he held his own very well yet the same thing the cessionist could not prove his point biblically so he at the end told the aog preacher to perform a sign right now.
he was very upset. just like the Pharisees demanded Jesus do what they wanted.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are speaking against the Word of God, you have not that authority as you are not an apostle to even make such a claim.

And you are putting yourself in the position of a pope. Since Paul SPECIFICALLY stated that three spiritual gifts would cease, and they did cease, you do not have a leg to stand on. The modern tongues movement (early 20th century) revived tongues, but whether those are genuine remains questionable. Had that gift been present in all churches for 1900 years, you might have had a point.

 

[SophieT]

yes I have seen Michael Brown, there was one debate I watched that was not Brown but a guy from NY he held his own very well yet the same thing the cessionist could not prove his point biblically so he at the end told the aog preacher to perform a sign right now.
he was very upset. just like the Pharisees demanded Jesus do what they wanted.

yeah that is what they do

get upset and demand a miracle

I find Brown respectful and logical while still passionate.

 

[DavidTree]

And you are putting yourself in the position of a pope. Since Paul SPECIFICALLY stated that three spiritual gifts would cease, and they did cease, you do not have a leg to stand on. The modern tongues movement (early 20th century) revived tongues, but whether those are genuine remains questionable. Had that gift been present in all churches for 1900 years, you might have had a point.

i stand on Truth = It is written

The Apostle Paul never said that the Gifts ceased.

The Apostle Paul said that they will cease when we are no longer here on earth but "face to face" with the Lord.

Up until now you did not know that "face to face" is a marriage term.

i do not seek to be an apostle nor do i need to be one, but only to be submitted to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

When we are submitted unto God we have no desire to change or alter His Word to conform to our unbelief.

PEACE

 

[Aerials1978]

What is your line of thinking?

Well for one, there has been no validated evidence to support the notion that certain miracles still do occur. I’m not say God cannot do these thigs, I’m saying He choose not to. The Apostolic age was unique as it was the founding of what would be become the Church. Not only did the Apostles have to deal with the traditions of Judaism and the religious elite of their day, but with very hostile gentile nations and cultures. Nothing had been codified as far that the NT was concerned, so God used these men and gave them special gifts to carry out the ministry that would eventually lead to their deaths. Since no written word had yet been given, God used them to convince people that they were indeed commissioned by Christ. That’s another reason I have a difficult time accepting people’s testimonies about having spiritual gifts. Jesus Himself, face to face told these men what they would do and receive. Jesus speaking to you directly in a physical and audible way is unprecedented. It just doesn’t not happen randomly.

 

[DavidTree]

Well for one, there has been no validated evidence to support the notion that certain miracles still do occur. I’m not say God cannot do these thigs, I’m saying He choose not to. The Apostolic age was unique as it was the founding of what would be become the Church. Not only did the Apostles have to deal with the traditions of Judaism and the religious elite of their day, but with very hostile gentile nations and cultures. Nothing had been codified as far that the NT was concerned, so God used these men and gave them special gifts to carry out the ministry that would eventually lead to their deaths. Since no written word had yet been given, God used them to convince people that they were indeed commissioned by Christ. That’s another reason I have a difficult time accepting people’s testimonies about having spiritual gifts. Jesus Himself, face to face told these men what they would do and receive. Jesus speaking to you directly in a physical and audible way is unprecedented. It just doesn’t not happen randomly.

OK, good stuff and valid.

The question now is between you and the LORD.

Do you want to know and embrace the Truth???

Do not seek Truth if you will only turn away from it or worse (as in the case of McArthur) and fight against it.

As with all revelation from God, it is always a heart issue = either you allow your heart to be circumcised or you say 'no thanks'.

The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live............Deuteronomy 30:6

 

[Aerials1978]

OK, good stuff and valid.

The question now is between you and the LORD.

Do you want to know and embrace the Truth???

Do not seek Truth if you will only turn away from it or worse (as in the case of McArthur) and fight against it.

As with all revelation from God, it is always a heart issue = either you allow your heart to be circumcised or you say 'no thanks'.

The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, and you will love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live............Deuteronomy 30:6

I don’t fight against God. That would be futile. If God decides to show me something, He will and in accordance to His purpose. I think MacArthur and I have the same opinion to an extent, but he is much more knowledgeable of theology than I am. That’s not to say I agree with everything he says, but for the most part I do.

 

[kaylagrl]

You’re making an assumption based on feelings and not actuality.

Which is where the argument begins. Because right here you are making an assumption and a judgment.

If I have certain evidence based in scripture and historical records to indicate God gave certain people specific gifts at a particular point in time and that has ended that for now, some will say that I don’t enough faith and that’s just not true. Saying what’s true for me and not for thee is a logical fallacy. God does not operate on what you or I believe to be truth.

When the perfect has come, it has debated, discussed, and done again and again. There is no day that is mentioned in Scripture, no date that says tongues will cease. You think it's one period in time, I think it's another. If you claim you are right, then anyone speaking in tongues today is doing it under the power of satan, period. If it's not of God it's of satan, there is no middle ground.

 

[CS1]

Well for one, there has been no validated evidence to support the notion that certain miracles still do occur. I’m not say God cannot do these thigs, I’m saying He choose not to. The Apostolic age was unique as it was the founding of what would be become the Church. Not only did the Apostles have to deal with the traditions of Judaism and the religious elite of their day, but with very hostile gentile nations and cultures. Nothing had been codified as far that the NT was concerned, so God used these men and gave them special gifts to carry out the ministry that would eventually lead to their deaths. Since no written word had yet been given, God used them to convince people that they were indeed commissioned by Christ. That’s another reason I have a difficult time accepting people’s testimonies about having spiritual gifts. Jesus Himself, face to face told these men what they would do and receive. Jesus speaking to you directly in a physical and audible way is unprecedented. It just doesn’t not happen randomly.

says you? Or secular humanism? In the same breath, YOU SAY, YOU ARE NOT SAYING " God cannot do these things",
but stand by that God doesn't do them today. Really?

That is a half-baked cake LOL. You can't have it both ways. God does whether you see it or NOT. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things NOT SEEN. Jesus said you believe because you have seen, Blessed IS he who believes and doesn't have to see.

The Apostolic age and the word of God say nothing of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped or would stop.

 

[kaylagrl]

I'm not a fan of Word Of Faith, in fact I'm not a fan of denominations.

Well, not being nasty here, Word of Faith churches are independent, meaning no denomination. They have no government in the church, no overseer they preach and do as they like. A pastor can't be voted out. That is why we have denominations, so a pastor can be voted out if needs be, so the church is held accountable for what money is spent where, and people have a vote on what is and is not done in the church. Independents aren't like that. That's why so much foolishness and abuse happens in these churches, they are accountable to no one.

 

[DavidTree]

I don’t fight against God. That would be futile. If God decides to show me something, He will and in accordance to His purpose. I think MacArthur and I have the same opinion to an extent, but he is much more knowledgeable of theology than I am. That’s not to say I agree with everything he says, but for the most part I do.

How does God show to us Truth???

Is McArthur fighting against Truth???

How can you know if someone is fighting against Truth???

 

[Aerials1978]

Which is where the argument begins. Because right here you are making an assumption and a judgment.




When the perfect has come, it has debated, discussed, and done again and again. There is no day that is mentioned in Scripture, no date that says tongues will cease. You think it's one period in time, I think it's another. If you claim you are right, then anyone speaking in tongues today is doing it under the power of satan, period. If it's not of God it's of satan, there is no middle ground.

Can you pinpoint a time within the last 1,800 where the Apostolic ministry was and has been continuous beyond the original 13? Any of the early church fathers writtings on the matter?

 

[CS1]

Well, not being nasty here, Word of Faith churches are independent, meaning no denomination. They have no government in the church, no overseer they preach and do as they like. A pastor can't be voted out. That is why we have denominations, so a pastor can be voted out if needs be, so the church is held accountable for what money is spent where, and people have a vote on what is and is not done in the church. Independents aren't like that. That's why so much foolishness and abuse happens in these churches, they are accountable to no one.

that is a good point in fact there are many independent churches from both sides of the coin why? many of them can't live under the bylaws of that fellowship. They leave and start a new thing.


gay marriage
drinking
divorce and remarrying
unsubmissive to leadership
no accountability

Yet those who are non-denomination are really from a denomination. How do I know that? because Read the statement of faith they all mirror a denomination LOL.

 

[Isaskar]

huh

didn't know about that one

do you have a reference?

Here is one, from a Q&A he did.

He is also a staunch calvinist and very anti-spiritual gifts. Not good. Best to remain neutral than anti, at the very least.

 

[SophieT]

Can you pinpoint a time within the last 1,800 where the Apostolic ministry was and has been continuous beyond the original 13? Any of the early church fathers writtings on the matter?

are you able to time travel and affirm this statement or deny it?

don't tell others to do what you could not do yourself

you are repeating what you are taught. these objections have been evidenced throughout this forum over and over

do you have an objection you achieved through your own study, or will you simply continue to parrot what your teachers tell you?