Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[kleronomos]

We are TRIED by the god of this world and his minions for all the 2000 years of this Church age.

Every age has its own tribulations. I am sorry you are so scared and unsure of either God or yourself.

His words are the armor that you need. That is all that it takes. I hope the last post helped. Sometimes seeing how it was written in the language it started out in HELPS with understanding. Certainly you can see how there is no getting around that.

 

[Faithiskey1]

No, I didn't say that. He apparently took the believers to heaven and then returned to visit with the 500 or so, which was before His ascension in Acts 1.

The Bible doesn't tell us specifically WHEN all the believers from Paradise went to heaven.

Setting aside the first resurrection for a moment(1000 years earlier than I will quote in a moment from revelation)

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6:39&40

When is the last day?
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away Rev21:1-4

The last day, is the last day of this present earth, before it passes away. And if we note Rev20:15, it will include the saved and unsaved.

 

[kleronomos]

Paul himself knew he'd not immediately go there when he died - he said that takes place "at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:51-57 KJV). Telling the church he preferred to skip lying in the grave "naked" and "unclothed" without a body awaiting the resurrection body does not change the divine order of things.

How could you possibly get the above from this?

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


(1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first) :
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

WE KNOW FROM THE ABOVE THAT IS THE THE ALIVE AND REMAINING BEING SPOKEN OF HERE THAT ARE CHANGED

AND WE ALSO KNOW THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP HAVE GONE TO BE WITH HIM BEFORE THIS, PREVIOUS TO, AHEAD OF THIS TIME BEING SPOKEN OF BELOW THAT YOU ARE SAYING PAUL IS SAYING BUT HE ISN'T AT ALL.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It has to be ASSUMED PAUL IS DEAD AND NOT RISEN. But Paul has received the gift of Salvation. HAS PAUL PAUSED in HIS ETERNAL LIFE TO TO TAKE A NAP IN DEATH

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Jesus was referring to the place where all OT believers went at death, Paradise. Paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom, is in Hades, a compartment different than Torments, where all the unsaved in the OT went, and still go to when they die.


Right. He had gone to Hades and "preached to the spirits in prison" and then took all the believers to heaven with Him.

LOL The "spirits in prison" is a poetic expression for the rebellious Antediluvians, according to Peter, who were imprisoned in the prison house of sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You previously stated Jesus took the believers to Heaven on his way to Heaven.

How else would they get there?

If you are correct. Christ must have preached to the spirits of the departed when he died at Calvary, left them where they were, rose from the grave and at some point after he saw Mary just after his resurrection he returned to those spirits, took them to Heaven and then returned to earth until his ascension in Acts ch1. Have you scripture to support this chain of events?

What you describe as my chain of events isn't even close to what I posted..

I noted that the Bible doesn't give specifics. So, when Jesus appeared to Mary in the garden, He told her that He hadn't gone to the Father yet. So it is obvious that He went to the Father after that. No one knows how soon. Then, since He had appeared to over 500 peope over 40 days, it is also obvious that He came back to earth.

His final ascension to heaven was in Acts 1.

I hope this clears things up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Setting aside the first resurrection for a moment(1000 years earlier than I will quote in a moment from revelation)

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6:39&40

When is the last day?
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away Rev21:1-4

The last day, is the last day of this present earth, before it passes away. And if we note Rev20:15, it will include the saved and unsaved.

Nope.

The Bible clearly describes the resurrection of the saved in the singular. ie, ONE resurrection for the saved. And one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 says so very clearly.
1 Cor 15:23 says very clearly that 'those who belong to Him' will be resurrected "when he comes". Again, this proves that ALL believers from all time will be resurrected when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent. And 2 Thess 2:1 says so plainly as well.

Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as being the FIRST resurrection. That means there will be a SECOND one as well.

And from Acts 24:15, it is obvious that the SECOND one is for all the unsaved, so they can appear at the GWT judgment.

So I disagree with your view.

So, if your view is correct, then all of the believers from the Millennial reign (assuming there will be mortal believers) will miss out on reigning with Christ and the wedding supper.

 

[FreeGrace2]

LOL The "spirits in prison" is a poetic expression for the rebellious Antediluvians, according to Peter, who were imprisoned in the prison house of sin.

I'm really interested in where you get your material.

You're going to have to prove your claim about what is "according to Peter", and what is this "prison house of sin"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I utilized "Logic Progression" to show you how redonkulous it is to teach Immortal Soul doctrine.

lol. You use "symbolism" to defend your theory regarding Jesus' account of life in the afterlife, John's clear vision of souls in heaven shouting for revenge, etc.

Yet, the real symbolism is in the word "death". You only see soul sleep. But the Bible describes physical death OF THE BODY as sleeping.

Or more clear, sleeping in the grave. When you apply that to all YOUR verses, your theory falls apart because the only thing that can be said to be sleeping IS the body, and NOT the soul.

And Paul was crystal clear in his writings:

Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

He viewed death as being WITH the Lord. Just as the thief on the cross was going to be WITH Jesus that day.

Bottom line: you are applying symbolism to the wrong things. Apply it to death and "sleep" when referring to physical death.

 

[Rondonmon]

"Unto 2,300 DAYS then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed" is what Daniel 8:14 KJV says....NOT "SACRIFICES"....days.

EVENING & MORNING..............It's pointing ack unto what is being taken way, this is not that difficult, you rally need to stop trying to be a Prophecy wonk you have zero understanding on these things.

Just because some human MEN translated it wrongly, then 10 or so verses later translates it correctly, doesn't make it a day, no matter what you say, you continue to trust in the human translators from 1611 and I will trust in the original manuscripts written by Daniel, given unto him by Angels.

The fact that you don't even recognize Protestant Historicism as my basis for overthrowing your Jesuit Futurist nonsense is evidence enough to disprove such an arrogant statement.

I don't keep up with all that idiocy tbh, I just know your understandings are off the deep end.

 

[ewq1938]

ewq1938 and FreeGrace2, your feedback is appreciated. Thanks for taking the time.

Are you both proposing that everyone righteous is resurrected at the time of the resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelation 11?

No. The two prophets resurrect roughly an hour before the 7th trump sounds. That's when the first mass resurrection of the dead takes place, all the dead in Christ which includes OT saints etc. The second mass resurrection of the dead are "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" and that takes place after the thousand years are over, after satan's little season, after his army is destroyed outside of Jerusalem and at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). They are resurrected and then brought forth from hell and death etc to be judged.

 

[ewq1938]

I do not believe the 2W are resurrected, meaning that is when they will receive their glorified bodies.

Well, they still are resurrected though. There are two types. Resurrection back to mortal life, or resurrection unto immortal life.

Since these 2W never physically died before, that is when they do physically die. They cannot receive their glorified bodies yet, since ALL believers receive theirs when He comes.

Which also proves flesh and blood can enter heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but heaven and entering is something different. I'm not saying you believe in either of that, I am just saying to all who are reading.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was referring to the place where all OT believers went at death, Paradise. Paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom, is in Hades, a compartment different than Torments, where all the unsaved in the OT went, and still go to when they die.

That's not correct. Hades and Abraham's bosom are two separate places, separated by a gulf. Abraham's bosom not in Hades. That's like saying Heaven is inside the lake of fire.

 

[DavidTree]

Setting aside the first resurrection for a moment(1000 years earlier than I will quote in a moment from revelation)

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6:39&40

When is the last day?
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away Rev21:1-4

The last day, is the last day of this present earth, before it passes away. And if we note Rev20:15, it will include the saved and unsaved.

The last day is referring to satan's present rule = "the god of this age"

With the Second Coming of Christ comes the "last day" of satan's power and rule, and the Resurrection of the Just and the beginning of the 1,000 Year Reign with Christ.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess ch2

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation ch20

 

[Nehemiah6]

Abraham's bosom not in Hades.

That is incorrect. Jesus made it crystal clear that BOTH the righteous and unrighteous dead were in Sheol/Hades before His resurrection. He call the region of the righteous dead "Abraham's Bosom", but that is definitely not Paradise. And this region was separayed by a huge chasm from the region of the unrighteous (unsaved).

Paradise has been "the Paradise of God" (Rev 2:7) in Heaven since immediately after the Fall. It was never in Sheol/Hades. And today all those who were formerly in Abraham's bosom in Sheol/Hades are now in the New Jerusalem, which also contains Paradise.

 

[DavidTree]

lol. You use "symbolism" to defend your theory regarding Jesus' account of life in the afterlife, John's clear vision of souls in heaven shouting for revenge, etc.

Yet, the real symbolism is in the word "death". You only see soul sleep. But the Bible describes physical death OF THE BODY as sleeping.

Or more clear, sleeping in the grave. When you apply that to all YOUR verses, your theory falls apart because the only thing that can be said to be sleeping IS the body, and NOT the soul.

And Paul was crystal clear in his writings:

Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

2 Cor 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

He viewed death as being WITH the Lord. Just as the thief on the cross was going to be WITH Jesus that day.

Bottom line: you are applying symbolism to the wrong things. Apply it to death and "sleep" when referring to physical death.

CORRECT - all refernces to "sleeping and those who sleep" is only pertaining to their physical bodies that died and are now "sleeping in the earth" waiting to awake/rise at His Coming.

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Physical bodies die and return to the dust and souls return to God = Righteous to Heaven and the wicked to Hades.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jesus is not bringing dead bodies with Him = lol x100000000000000000000000

Jesus is bringing with Him those who are in Heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

How else would they get there?

The same way they got to where they were. They don't need Jesus to move them.

 

[ewq1938]

Paradise has been "the Paradise of God" (Rev 2:7) in Heaven since immediately after the Fall. It was never in Sheol/Hades.

Neither was Abraham's bosom. It's a separate place than Hades. Christ was clear about that.

 

[Faithiskey1]

Nope.

The Bible clearly describes the resurrection of the saved in the singular. ie, ONE resurrection for the saved. And one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 says so very clearly.
1 Cor 15:23 says very clearly that 'those who belong to Him' will be resurrected "when he comes". Again, this proves that ALL believers from all time will be resurrected when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent. And 2 Thess 2:1 says so plainly as well.

Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as being the FIRST resurrection. That means there will be a SECOND one as well.

And from Acts 24:15, it is obvious that the SECOND one is for all the unsaved, so they can appear at the GWT judgment.

So I disagree with your view.

So, if your view is correct, then all of the believers from the Millennial reign (assuming there will be mortal believers) will miss out on reigning with Christ and the wedding supper.

Thank you for your thoughts

 

[Faithiskey1]

How else would they get there?


What you describe as my chain of events isn't even close to what I posted..

I noted that the Bible doesn't give specifics. So, when Jesus appeared to Mary in the garden, He told her that He hadn't gone to the Father yet. So it is obvious that He went to the Father after that. No one knows how soon. Then, since He had appeared to over 500 peope over 40 days, it is also obvious that He came back to earth.

His final ascension to heaven was in Acts 1.

I hope this clears things up.

That would seem exactly as I described my understanding of your views, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Faithiskey1]

The last day is referring to satan's present rule = "the god of this age"

With the Second Coming of Christ comes the "last day" of satan's power and rule, and the Resurrection of the Just and the beginning of the 1,000 Year Reign with Christ.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess ch2

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation ch20

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev20:11-15

So if I understand you correctly, the above verses do not at all refer to the saved, only the unsaved? It would seem to me, if that were true verse 15 should read: ''They were all thrown into the lake of fire'', for none of their names could have been found in the book of life.'' So I am not sure why the book of life would have been opened if no one there was in it