The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Combanitorics]

The rapture? Sure. Some people are taken away I see by God, and this is before the last judgement. Now will someone please mind telling me where they GO? And if you are raptured, then wherever you go then, what is you condition when comes the reputed last judgement, of they say, only the resurrected? This is a doctrine which I need explained in natural language!

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture? Sure. Some people are taken away I see by God, and this is before the last judgement. Now will someone please mind telling me where they GO?

They are taken to clouds of the Earth to meet Christ who is waiting there for them.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Christ will bring the dead in Christ with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are alive and survived something very terrible cannot "prevent" the dead in Christ which simply means the living will not meet with Christ before the dead in Christ meet him. This also proves the dead in Christ are not on Earth and raptured with the living. The dead come from heaven with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is how the living cannot meet with Christ before the dead do. Christ will leave heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect. They will come with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. Christ leaves heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrect.
3. The dead in Christ come with Christ, following him.
4. The living will be changed and then are caught up/raptured (Harpazo in Greek) to the clouds of the Earth.
5. The living meet Christ and the formerly dead in Christ at those clouds.
6. The second coming will continue with Christ descending to the Earth, likely to Armageddon first, then to Mt Zion.
7. It's possible he goes to Mt Zion first, and Armageddon second. The text is not clear on that.

And if you are raptured, then wherever you go then, what is you condition when comes the reputed last judgement, of they say, only the resurrected?

Not sure what you mean.

 

[awelight]

You are splitting up and dividing the Body of Christ.

There only was one Gospel, starting in Genesis - no one is saved apart from it.

There is only One Body with No distinction between Jew and Gentile.

There is no separation of that Body via false teaching such as a pre-trib rapture that is non-existent in Scripture.

You said: "Therefore, the Church, will be kept from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world. It will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins because the Lord will be revisiting Israel during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation begins and the Church has been Raptured,"

This is sin by adding to and taking away from God's word.

I know your view on this subject David. You take a more or less A-Millennial view. I take, more or less, a Pre-Millennial view. These two views of Eschatology, cannot be reconciled. However, if you are open to a discussion on them, rather than your rants, I would be pleased to do so.

Let me open with, Revelation chapter 20:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[DavidTree]

I know your view on this subject David. You take a more or less A-Millennial view. I take, more or less, a Pre-Millennial view. These two views of Eschatology, cannot be reconciled. However, if you are open to a discussion on them, rather than your rants, I would be pleased to do so.

Let me open with, Revelation chapter 20:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

i got a good laugh from "rather than your rants" = thank you

 

[justbyfaith]

They are taken to clouds of the Earth to meet Christ who is waiting there for them.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Christ will bring the dead in Christ with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those who are alive and survived something very terrible cannot "prevent" the dead in Christ which simply means the living will not meet with Christ before the dead in Christ meet him. This also proves the dead in Christ are not on Earth and raptured with the living. The dead come from heaven with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is how the living cannot meet with Christ before the dead do. Christ will leave heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect. They will come with Christ as verse 14 says.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. Christ leaves heaven.
2. The dead in Christ resurrect.
3. The dead in Christ come with Christ, following him.
4. The living will be changed and then are caught up/raptured (Harpazo in Greek) to the clouds of the Earth.
5. The living meet Christ and the formerly dead in Christ at those clouds.
6. The second coming will continue with Christ descending to the Earth, likely to Armageddon first, then to Mt Zion.
7. It's possible he goes to Mt Zion first, and Armageddon second. The text is not clear on that.




Not sure what you mean.

I believe that it is slightly different than what you are purporting.

I believe that the dead in Christ will resurrect and in the same moments will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air along with the saints who are alive and remain.

Their spirits will be rejoined to their physical bodies at that juncture.

 

[DavidTree]

I know your view on this subject David. You take a more or less A-Millennial view. I take, more or less, a Pre-Millennial view. These two views of Eschatology, cannot be reconciled. However, if you are open to a discussion on them, rather than your rants, I would be pleased to do so.

Let me open with, Revelation chapter 20:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

i am all in on Rev ch20 as well as ch1 thru ch22

 

[DavidTree]

The rapture? Sure. Some people are taken away I see by God, and this is before the last judgement. Now will someone please mind telling me where they GO? And if you are raptured, then wherever you go then, what is you condition when comes the reputed last judgement, of they say, only the resurrected? This is a doctrine which I need explained in natural language!

No rapture will occur until the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection takes place First = 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[ewq1938]

I believe that the dead in Christ will resurrect and in the same moments will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air along with the saints who are alive and remain.

It's kinda hard for Christ to bring them with him if they aren't actually with him but are with the living saints. The text does not support that. I used the passage, and did an orderly commentary. Since you did not point out any flaws, I think it stands as originally posted. The dead in Christ are not raptured.

 

[justbyfaith]

No rapture will occur until the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection takes place First = 1 Thess 4:13-18

The resurrection comes in stages.

See Matthew 27:52, for example; compare to 2 Timothy 2:17-18.

 

[DavidTree]

I know your view on this subject David. You take a more or less A-Millennial view. I take, more or less, a Pre-Millennial view. These two views of Eschatology, cannot be reconciled. However, if you are open to a discussion on them, rather than your rants, I would be pleased to do so.

Let me open with, Revelation chapter 20:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Well, i am not amill as i believe in a literal 1,000 year reign when Christ returns.

 

[DavidTree]

The resurrection comes in stages.

See Matthew 27:52, for example; compare to 2 Timothy 2:17-18.

No Resurrection until His Coming and 2 Tim 2:17-18 destroys any myth of pre-trib rapture and multiple raptures/resurrections.

Matt 27 was a special event and limited to fulfill a prophecy in Isaiah

 

[Diakonos]

Thank you for your encouragement with some of my posts. Good to know that others see the same.

Absolutely! We agree on many things, and we should support each other when we resonate and challenge each other when we differ
As a reminder, I assume that you and others are reading the references I give. I wouldn't want you to think I'm inventing anything new.

I would like to know...Are you a KJV onlist?

(2 Cor. 11: 2) It is the Apostle Paul who betrothed his disciples to the Lord and he wanted to present them pure.

His disciples? Are you implying that only the Corinthian church is betrothed to Christ?

He has described the New Man, and how it is built and matured, BUT the Lord does NOT then say that it changes sex in ch. 5

I've already addressed this in post# 161 (quoted below)

The New Man ἄνθρωπος (Eph 2:15) does not promote either gender because "man" has a genderless meaning.

ἀνήρ (aner) is a biological "man"
γυνή (gune) is a biological "woman"
ἄνθρωπος (anthropos) is "person(s)/human(s)"...
...(translated as "man" in many cases in the sense of "mankind"... e.g. "man shall not live by bread alone"(Lk 4:4)

So appealing to the "New Man" ἄνθρωπος of Eph 2 is not evidence against the notion of a feminine connotation for the Church in chapter 5.

FWI, since you like to appeal to context, here is the outline of Eph:
It is the epistle that glorifies Christ by highlighting the identity of His church.

Ch 1- the church is a body
Ch 2- the church is a temple
Ch 3-the church is a mystery
Ch 4-the church is one
Ch 5-the church is a bride
Ch 6-the church is a soldier

God `married` Israel...they rebelled, He divorced them and then eventually He will `marry` join with them again.

It is sin for a priest (including Jesus-Heb 4:14) to marry anyone who is not a virgin (harlot) or is divorced (Lev 21:7). Israel is called both (Judg 2:17, Ps 106:39, Jer 3:8).

Just a note on the Holy Spirit being removed. I see that He will have brought the Body of Christ to maturity in the Lord and thus that purpose is complete. However I do not see the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, (everywhere present) as being removed from the world, (His world). For throughout the trib, we see many turn to God and that is God`s mercy by His Holy Spirit to turn those people to Himself.

Read the reference I gave (2 Thes 2:1-12...particularly vs 7). The Holy Spirit is "keeping the lid on", so to speak, so that the Antichrist and his government will not come to fruition until the appointed time (The day of the Lord), when He is removed.

Concerning omnipresence, the "eyes of the Lord" are described as His mode of seeing all things (2 Chron 16:19). God's glory shines far from Him, just as light travels far from the Sun, illuminating many planets. His glory fills the whole earth (Isa 6:3). So He is everywhere in that sense. But God’s actual presence is described as having locality (Ex 19:3, 25:22, 34:5, Num 11:25, Lev 1:1), rather than an all-encompassing, esoteric filling of the universe.

 

[justbyfaith]

It's kinda hard for Christ to bring them with him if they aren't actually with him but are with the living saints. The text does not support that. I used the passage, and did an orderly commentary. Since you did not point out any flaws, I think it stands as originally posted. The dead in Christ are not raptured.

God will bring with Him those who are asleep at the rapture at the time of the rapture. Their spirits will be rejoined at that time to their physical bodies as their bodies are resurrected at the time of the rapture.

I know that people who have died are still in the grave. When are you saying they will be resurrected?

 

[justbyfaith]

No Resurrection until His Coming and 2 Tim 2:17-18 destroys any myth of pre-trib rapture and multiple raptures/resurrections.

Matt 27 was a special event and limited to fulfill a prophecy in Isaiah

We are told to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture in Luke 21:36.

I do not believe that Jesus would tell us to pray for something and then say "no" in answer to that prayer...it is obviously a prayer according to His will.

See 1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24.

 

[ewq1938]

God will bring with Him those who are asleep at the rapture at the time of the rapture. Their spirits will be rejoined at that time to their physical bodies as their bodies are resurrected at the time of the rapture.

I know that people who have died are still in the grave. When are you saying they will be resurrected?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place at the 7th trump second coming. The resurrection bodies are in heaven according to Paul so the resurrection takes place in heaven, not on the Earth. They also receive new bodies, not their old bodies. Again, the new body is in heaven. They resurrect in heaven in a new body, and Christ brings them with him to the clouds to meet the raptured saints.

 

[DavidTree]

We are told to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture in Luke 21:36.

I do not believe that Jesus would tell us to pray for something and then say "no" in answer to that prayer...it is obviously a prayer according to His will.

See 1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24.

WE are not told to pray for a pre-trib rapture as the Lord said we will have tribulation and trials = John ch16 & 1 Thess ch3 & Acts

We are told to pray that we may escape by overcoming just as HE overcame = John ch16 & Rev ch1 - ch3

I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

 

[Diakonos]

These people, the great multitude and others, will NOT be in the Body of Christ purpose but still have a place in God`s great kingdom.

Agreed

 

[ewq1938]

We are told to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture in Luke 21:36.

No.


In Matthew 24 he placed gathering of saints (which is rapture) as happening after the GT has ended so Luke 21:36 is not addressing the rapture.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.


One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.


The other issue with Luke 21:36 is that the surrounding context is the second coming, which pre-trib denies as being the timing of rapture. What the verse is telling us is that people will survive the great tribulation by escaping all the deception and Apostasy and will be able to stand before Christ on the day his second coming, the one and only coming which is loud and visible to whole world. That is pure post-trib.

 

[justbyfaith]

WE are not told to pray for a pre-trib rapture as the Lord said we will have tribulation and trials = John ch16 & 1 Thess ch3 & Acts

We are told to pray that we may escape by overcoming just as HE overcame = John ch16 & Rev ch1 - ch3

I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!”

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

There is a difference between tribulation and The Great Tribulation.

The latter is the wrath of the Lord on a Christ-rejecting world (Zephaniah 1:14-15, Luke 21:23).

 

[ewq1938]

There is a difference between tribulation and The Great Tribulation.

The latter is the wrath of the Lord on a Christ-rejecting world (Zephaniah 1:14-15, Luke 21:23).

No, the Great Tribulation is satan's wrath against Christians. Christ described this time period in the Olivet Discourse as Christian persecution. Obviously that is not God's wrath against his own. God's wrath comes at the 7th trump (Revelation 11). The Great Tribulation is during the 6th trump and yes 6 means something related to the devil just as 666 does to the devil's Antichrist.