TONGUES false teaching.

[TDidymas]

Actually, there are records from the Apostles, throughout the Church Father's era, and down the line like the "father of the man who coined Trinity, Tertullian (he was actually the second, Theophilus of Antioch was first)" but Tertullian joined Montaneus and claims he Spoke in Tongues. And that list is complete down throughout the history till this very day.

So, what is Perfect?
Christ
Christ came once and was Perfect then.
Doesn't He Return again (Matthew 24)?
So, Perfect will come again.

Why is it difficult to believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit won't be active until Christ (Perfect) Returns?

Have you ever read John Wesley's experiences of watching those he preached to have what he called the Holy Shakes and Spoke Utterances?

I didn't say I believed one way or another. I'm a realist, and I think there are millions of other Christians who are realists, who simply want some proof that the claims are true. So far, examination and analysis has proven otherwise. According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tongues-men-...eywords=samarin&qid=1561690737&s=books&sr=1-1
modern tongues is a pseudo-language. It sounds like a language, but lacks structure and vocabulary to convey any meaning. It also states that non-Christians can do it, and in fact, anyone can do it, if they try hard enough. It's important to note that this guy is sympathetic to the Pentecostals and has positive things to say about the culture.

I get that he's just scratching the surface, since it's not possible for anyone to observe, record, and document every single case. It's the reason I'm hitting on Christian forums for people to provide data that can be analyzed. Like I said, if even one single case of bonified Biblical tongues of Acts 2 can be shown, a lot of people will be more open to the movement.

But Montanus was not considered a reliable teacher, and some of his teachings on the gifts of the Spirit were condemned in a subsequent council. And Tertullian was also fallible, and his claim to speak in tongues is not reliable the way I see it, as it could have been the same kind of counterfeit tongues that many speak today. Just because someone sincerely believes in what they are doing doesn't make it true.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I didn't say I believed one way or another. I'm a realist, and I think there are millions of other Christians who are realists, who simply want some proof that the claims are true. So far, examination and analysis has proven otherwise. According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tongues-men-...eywords=samarin&qid=1561690737&s=books&sr=1-1
modern tongues is a pseudo-language. It sounds like a language, but lacks structure and vocabulary to convey any meaning. It also states that non-Christians can do it, and in fact, anyone can do it, if they try hard enough. It's important to note that this guy is sympathetic to the Pentecostals and has positive things to say about the culture.

I get that he's just scratching the surface, since it's not possible for anyone to observe, record, and document every single case. It's the reason I'm hitting on Christian forums for people to provide data that can be analyzed. Like I said, if even one single case of bonified Biblical tongues of Acts 2 can be shown, a lot of people will be more open to the movement.

But Montanus was not considered a reliable teacher, and some of his teachings on the gifts of the Spirit were condemned in a subsequent council. And Tertullian was also fallible, and his claim to speak in tongues is not reliable the way I see it, as it could have been the same kind of counterfeit tongues that many speak today. Just because someone sincerely believes in what they are doing doesn't make it true.

And i am not trying to persuade you, but to give you evidence so you can search for yourself.

Montaneus does indeed have a reputation, which makes it stranger that Tertullian would seek him out and join him.

Do You think Tertullian, the one who defined to a degree modern day trinity as someone unreliable to Montaneus?

 

[CS1]

Why do you think it is found in kundalini and pagan circles?

Why do you think they imitate it?

Why would Satan want to COPY what is of God?

Because it is Real and it is Powerful!

Satan only copies what he knows is so Powerful it destroys his efforts.

If you cannot tell the feel the Power behind those who Speak in Tongues and those who fake it through Pagan Practices, you clearly do not have the Gift of Discernment.

only those like you seek pagan demonic practices to define the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals would never seek things like kundalini in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just those like you do that. We looked at Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:1-4 and 1Cor chapters 12 through 14. Never would we even look to such things but those like you do.


We are not seeking satan to disprove the word of God, but you are.

 

[CS1]

some here know nothing of the pentecostal doctrine or the founding of it. Which is in the Book of Acts and the New Testament. FYI most earlier ones for your information were Southern Baptist. There was no issue with the pentecostal experience until it became a movement. Try to use science and secular mindset to explain a biblical/spiritual context, that is error(carnal-minded).

I looked very hard for any Scriptural references to support their posts? I do not see anything here to address 1Corinthians chapter 12-14 or Eph chapter 4 or the Book of Acts accounts contextually. Which all Pentecostals stand on. Pentacostel doctrine did not come from pagans.

The idea of those of secular, carnal, unsaved explaining the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is absurd.

And these professing Christians regurgitate them because they have hate for Pentecostals.

These same types who say when speaking about the gift of tongues, found in the listing of all gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1cor chapter 12 hold to the secular explanation of biblical things. Here are some secular statements which are common:

• entirely self-created phenomenon.
• It is a non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes)
• People tend to believe something to be supernatural because they can't explain it otherwise.
• “tongues-speakers” are producing that cannot easily be explained in linguistic terms."

Please know those who received such explanation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit will and have supported gay marriage, transgenderism, and look to pagan worship to attack and use the very same kind of secular science to do so. Kundalini languages of pagans. The holiness movement would have thrown us out for even saying such a thing let alone practicing it. Those who hate Pentecostals looked outside of the bible to pagan practices to explain the Bible, and we are unbiblical? LOL.

I will say this IF the science speaks against what God said not to do, the science is wrong.

Of course, secular science would say "it's all made up", but transgender is a real thing?

They even try to explain a supernatural event recorded in the Word of God because "it is scientifically impossible for the red sea to be split, or Jesus did not actually walk on water." "it's fairy tales", "Spaghetti Monster under the sea", and " that was meant figuratively, not literally".

Most Christians who don't support this type of explanation have been attacked as many of us have in our Secular education. Can't be part of the clubs if you stand for such things. Wimps and sell-outs have abandoned the word of God because of scoffers, they could not hack it. "Do you believe the Red Sea account is real?" the secular professors mocked and scoffed at them and they crumbled like a cookie.

This is not about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, this is about those who have a carnal mindset and will not accept what the word of God says because it insults their carnal mindset (intelligence). They will pull out a linguist or two but if there is a list of other scientific studies that say otherwise, well, that is false.

You can't explain what happen in the book ACTS accounts of the empowering of the 120, by the Holy Spirit or the House of Cornelius, or the Christians who Paul met? Refute 1cor 12 through 14, without taking only one verse to build a straw man on.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today and the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues, and prophesying are for the edification of the Body of Christ which is still happening today.

Deal with the abuse, the scamming, of those who you know we all have spoken out about, but don't use pagan or secular science to disprove Biblical spiritual things seen in the word of God that we believe is for today.

Refute by the word of God. You can be wrong about 1cor 13:10 and many will not admit it because of pride,so you

go outside the word of God and try to stick false pagan practices like Kundalini or other cult and pagan things.

Yet it is well known those in the holiness movement would never even have anything to do with pagan or Cultic practices.

The only source used in the 1900s for the gifts of the Holy Spirit was the Bible.

Those here would have you believe

1. a group of people who had a desire to have more of God praying to the Lord Jesus was overtaken by a cult they never knew about or even spoken on. The very Pentecostal doctrine which was taken from the very word of God explains why we believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.
2. Those who claim to be Christians have to go outside the Bible to explain what happen inside the Bible those who believe the gifts are for today when they seek the gifts are going get something else, because when they called on Jesus and asked for the empowering the Holy Spirit God gave them a devil instead.

yet they say we are unbiblical. Ridicules.

You hate K. Copland, sid Roth, Rev Brown, and others on tv please do so. Mark chapter 16 Acts 1:8 1Corinthians chapter 12-14 speak of this from the Holy Spirit. IF you think those who seek the Lord Jesus and ask for the Holy Spirit get a devil instead Jesus said very clearly in the gospel of Luke 11:13

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

 

[JTB]

 

[CS1]

View attachment 234708

your color log is needing correction at verse Five "Unless someone interprets so that the church may be edified"

this is about tongues and interpretation of tongues being the same as or equal to Prophesying

 

[JTB]

your color log is needing correction at verse Five "Unless someone interprets so that the church may be edified"

this is about tongues and interpretation of tongues being the same as or equal to Prophesying

Hmmm... an interpreted tongue is prophesy which edifies the assembly, so it should stay red? Maybe revert "Unless someone" back to black?

 

[VARob]

Hmmm... an interpreted tongue is prophesy which edifies the assembly, so it should stay red? Maybe revert "Unless someone" back to black?

In my understanding, tongues is to God (1 Cor 14:2). It makes sense that the interpretation would be to God. When the 12 spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, they spoke the wonderful works of God. When Cornelius and family spoke in tongues, they were magnifying God. Words that are to God, praising Him, magnifying Him, also edify the congregation.

I think prophesy is words from God to the congregation, and tongues is to God, words of praise. Tongues is also praying in the spirit, but I think that is mainly in your private prayer life...

 

[TDidymas]

And i am not trying to persuade you, but to give you evidence so you can search for yourself.

Montaneus does indeed have a reputation, which makes it stranger that Tertullian would seek him out and join him.

Do You think Tertullian, the one who defined to a degree modern day trinity as someone unreliable to Montaneus?

I don't understand your question. Tertullian may have had a novel idea called trinity, but it doesn't mean he was right about everything. The trouble with a certain denomination I won't mention is that they put way too much stock in what was written by the early church fathers past the 1st century.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

only those like you seek pagan demonic practices to define the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals would never seek things like kundalini in context to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just those like you do that. We looked at Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:1-4 and 1Cor chapters 12 through 14. Never would we even look to such things but those like you do.


We are not seeking satan to disprove the word of God, but you are.

English must be your second Language.

You like to interject and project incorrectly upon many posters.

Should i send you some tissue since you are now following me thread to thread and whining like a child who can't have their way?

 

[CS1]

English must be your second Language.

You like to interject and project incorrectly upon many posters.

Should i send you some tissue since you are now following me thread to thread and whining like a child who can't have their way?

Many here are very much capable of understanding what I have said. as far as a child goes it is not I who is name-calling, it is you.

anytime you want to answer the question I asked you and others let me know . I woke up happy and will be sleeping the same way

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Many here are very much capable of understanding what I have said. as far as a child goes it is not I who is name-calling, it is you.

anytime you want to answer the question I asked you and others let me know . I woke up happy and will be sleeping the same way

I wake up knowing God performs Miracles specifically for me and speaks to me in person in the form of Angels, I sleep like a baby!

 

[CS1]

I wake up knowing God performs Miracles specifically for me and speaks to me in person in the form of Angels, I sleep like a baby!

more likely something else, that is why you have depression.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

more likely something else, that is why you have depression.

You definitely don't have the Gift of Discernment, more like the Gift of Baloney!

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I don't understand your question. Tertullian may have had a novel idea called trinity, but it doesn't mean he was right about everything. The trouble with a certain denomination I won't mention is that they put way too much stock in what was written by the early church fathers past the 1st century.

Oh, you find issue with Tertullian's 3 in 1 idealism?

Personally, I would never think any one single Denomination has the absolute True Doctrine in their attempt to interpret Scripture, but I do believe for the most part they are Biblically founded and grounded. It seems where the differences between Denomination lies at falls in the interpretation itself. Look at Cessation. They cannot prove that which is Perfect has Come, they actually believe that which is Perfect to Come is Christ, but they go against Scripture to claim Certain Gifts have ceased. You cannot have one without the other. If that which is Perfect has not Come, then certain Gifts have not ceased. So, by their very own definition, they prove themselves to be in correct on the merit of logic alone.

And for those, who do believe the Gifts are active till that which is Perfect has Come, you get a few Examples that are sketch will allows the Cessation Folks to cry foul.

Bottom line is rather simple. Testimonies are only as good as the proofs we have to present. Interpretations are only as good as those that are proven to be correct. Doctrines are only as good if they are aligned specifically to the Word of God. Emotional Disparity can muddy the waters faster than a running faucet on dirt. The Word of God is the only Standard of Truth. Anything that wavers from that, is personal opinion. Personal opinion, is not thus saith God. And as seen on this forum, ruffled feathers, will turn someone perceived as a person of God into a raving lunatic when you prove their position incorrect or if they [read into] something you have never claimed.

 

[kaylagrl]

I can see that you are very agitated. I'm sorry for pushing your buttons. Could we have a civil conversation?

Not agitated at all, Gideon and I had are having a calm discussion. It's just you and I disagree. There may be other things we agree on, this one is not it. I know what the Word says, I know what I believe.

In regard to the beginning history of Pentecostalism in the US, this link is a good summary of it, and I have read the same history in other sources:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/tongues-false-teaching.196454/page-12#post-4451321
But since you didn't even read all of my original post, I'll doubt you'll read that, or that you'll believe the historical record, because it makes what you do suspect.

I know the history of Pentecostalism, I don't need to read the link. Thanks.

But how about my question you didn't answer? Do you claim your tongues is the same as Acts 2?

Refer back to the post where I talked about the pastor with the large church. That will answer your question.

 

[kaylagrl]

Oh, you find issue with Tertullian's 3 in 1 idealism?

Personally, I would never think any one single Denomination has the absolute True Doctrine in their attempt to interpret Scripture, but I do believe for the most part they are Biblically founded and grounded. It seems where the differences between Denomination lies at falls in the interpretation itself. Look at Cessation. They cannot prove that which is Perfect has Come, they actually believe that which is Perfect to Come is Christ, but they go against Scripture to claim Certain Gifts have ceased. You cannot have one without the other. If that which is Perfect has not Come, then certain Gifts have not ceased. So, by their very own definition, they prove themselves to be in correct on the merit of logic alone.

And for those, who do believe the Gifts are active till that which is Perfect has Come, you get a few Examples that are sketch will allows the Cessation Folks to cry foul.

Bottom line is rather simple. Testimonies are only as good as the proofs we have to present. Interpretations are only as good as those that are proven to be correct. Doctrines are only as good if they are aligned specifically to the Word of God. Emotional Disparity can muddy the waters faster than a running faucet on dirt. The Word of God is the only Standard of Truth. Anything that wavers from that, is personal opinion. Personal opinion, is not thus saith God. And as seen on this forum, ruffled feathers, will turn someone perceived as a person of God into a raving lunatic when you prove their position incorrect or if they [read into] something you have never claimed.

I've heard amazing testimonies from friends that are missionaries. I had missionary friends that were caught under Idi Amin. I grew up listening to their miraculous stories when they were in other lands. I never demanded proof, I never said I didn't believe them because I wasn't there to see it first hand. So that's what annoys me so much when these people come in here and demand proof of this or that, how arrogant !! As I say to these type of people as the blind man said "all I know is once I was blind, now I see".

 

[kaylagrl]

I can see that you are very agitated. I'm sorry for pushing your buttons. Could we have a civil conversation?

In regard to the beginning history of Pentecostalism in the US, this link is a good summary of it, and I have read the same history in other sources:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/tongues-false-teaching.196454/page-12#post-4451321
But since you didn't even read all of my original post, I'll doubt you'll read that, or that you'll believe the historical record, because it makes what you do suspect.

But how about my question you didn't answer? Do you claim your tongues is the same as Acts 2?[/QUOTE]


Oh, BTW, the person that posted that isn't a believer. Nice that you would believe them, but not your brothers and sisters in Christ. Sad.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I've heard amazing testimonies from friends that are missionaries. I had missionary friends that were caught under Idi Amin. I grew up listening to their miraculous stories when they were in other lands. I never demanded proof, I never said I didn't believe them because I wasn't there to see it first hand. So that's what annoys me so much when these people come in here and demand proof of this or that, how arrogant !! As I say to these type of people as the blind man said "all I know is once I was blind, now I see".

Amen!

 

[TDidymas]

Oh, you find issue with Tertullian's 3 in 1 idealism?

Not sure what you mean by this. I find I can agree with some things he wrote, but like I said, he is fallible, unlike what the apostles wrote.

Personally, I would never think any one single Denomination has the absolute True Doctrine in their attempt to interpret Scripture, but I do believe for the most part they are Biblically founded and grounded. It seems where the differences between Denomination lies at falls in the interpretation itself. Look at Cessation. They cannot prove that which is Perfect has Come, they actually believe that which is Perfect to Come is Christ, but they go against Scripture to claim Certain Gifts have ceased. You cannot have one without the other. If that which is Perfect has not Come, then certain Gifts have not ceased. So, by their very own definition, they prove themselves to be in correct on the merit of logic alone.

And for those, who do believe the Gifts are active till that which is Perfect has Come, you get a few Examples that are sketch will allows the Cessation Folks to cry foul.

I get the idea that the cessationist vs continuationist argument will never be resolved until Jesus comes, so I try to avoid it because it's an endless debate. I go for more concrete questions.

Bottom line is rather simple. Testimonies are only as good as the proofs we have to present. Interpretations are only as good as those that are proven to be correct. Doctrines are only as good if they are aligned specifically to the Word of God. Emotional Disparity can muddy the waters faster than a running faucet on dirt. The Word of God is the only Standard of Truth. Anything that wavers from that, is personal opinion. Personal opinion, is not thus saith God. And as seen on this forum, ruffled feathers, will turn someone perceived as a person of God into a raving lunatic when you prove their position incorrect or if they [read into] something you have never claimed.

Amen, bro!